First game last night, first questions today:

First question: During free throws, the players from both teams had their arms extended into the lane to gain position. Arms were still, so I didn't call a violation. I started second guessing myself last night after the game. Was the no-call correct?

Second question: Two post players were getting pretty physical under the basket on both ends, while each team was running the offense. B had hold of A's arm and A was doing the "Shaq bump" to gain position on A. Didn't know who to call the foul on, so I didn't call. Is this a double foul or is it part of the game? No real advantage was gained, as both players were doing it. I did call other fouls on both throughout the night for blocking and holding.

Yeah, correct.

Quote:

Second question: Two post players were getting pretty physical under the basket on both ends, while each team was running the offense. B had hold of A's arm and A was doing the "Shaq bump" to gain position on A. Didn't know who to call the foul on, so I didn't call. Is this a double foul or is it part of the game? No real advantage was gained, as both players were doing it. I did call other fouls on both throughout the night for blocking and holding.

POE (again!) is rough play in the post. The hold's a foul.
The bump's a foul. TWEEET! Double foul, go with the arrow. Some folks will say to try & talk them out of it, some folks will say not to. I think this year I'm gonna not
be a talker (I'll let you know how it goes!)

How old are these kids?

Kids were high school JV girls, pretty big school. It really started in the last part of the second period and went through the entire second half. I knew it was a POE, but I wasn't sure at what point to call it. Does the "call it early and often" theory apply?

In this situation, I would try to call it on the first person I see doing something. A double foul is when you didn't see who initiated the action. Holding the arm is a definite foul.

As far as talking to the players. I would learn how to do it. Talk to them once. Blow the whistle the second time. You'll get your point across.

Do it early and all game long. Don't start to pay attention to it in the fourth quarter. It is too late.

RE: Post play
 

Dan,
I agree with your talk/call non-consensus.

I look at the tone of the contact <u>early</u> in the game.
When the contact is *way off ball* (<i>the ball is high or on the other side of the post players</i>) and the defender is grabbing/touching/pushing the post player without the ball I am inclined to talk.

Usually, the talking does no good, yet I make an attempt to let 'em know they have my attention. I like to let them know that I won't tolerate certain stuff. Since all of us officials judge things differently, I like to mention the parameters then, as opposed to the captain's meeting where I go over <u>no rules</u>.

From that point, I call.

mick

Sleeper,

If you are uncomfortable with the contact, but you are not sure who went first, any call, or Ref speak, will clean it up.
If a player, or coach, complains on "who did <u>what</u> first", just tell 'em I'm getting the other guy/gal next.
And then look for it.

As you know, without some official intervention, the activitiy will escalate.

mick

Absolutely. In your case I might have discussed this with
my partner during the half and came out looking for it to
start the second half.

Wow, that statement made my eyebrows jump up. I don't think that's what the rulemakers had in mind when they came up with a double foul.

---

IMO, a double foul is a great way to clean up this post play early in the game, if they are both banging away at each other like they're in the NBA. If one player is definately the culprit, get 'em for it. If they're both banging away, maybe talk to them, but get them with the double if you have to. Coaches (okay, smart coaches) will know exactly what you're doing, and won't have a problem with the double foul.

Just don't wait until the fourth quarter to call it, unless you plain have to.

Re: RE: Post play
 

Yeah, me too, this is what I might try and do less of this
season. Gets their attention really quickly. We'll see how it goes

Re: Re: RE: Post play
 

Now, ... I don't talk a lot.

"Get yer hands off."
"Take it easy in there."
"Clean it up."
"No forearm."

I don't present a dissertation.

They hear me, or not. :cool:
mick

Re: Re: Re: RE: Post play
 

Pretty much the way I handle it when I talk to them. But I've been hearing "let your whistle do your talking" a lot lately...figure I oughta give it a try. :-)

Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Post play
 

That certainly works. ...Right from the get-go. :)

I gotta disagree. IMO, calling a double foul is a bailout on our part. Usually we didn't see who started it and both players have committed fouls, so we call a double. That is not to say that it is wrong to do, but the supervisors I work for want the first foul called. They definitely don't like the double called. Almost always, you can get one guy at one end and the other guy at the other end.

With regards to talking to players, I will do it one time in the first quarter and then I blow the whistle. My experience is that players respond very well to the whistle and not very well to the voice.

[Edited by stripes on Nov 13th, 2002 at 11:11 AM]

When one player is always beating the other down the court and getting position, and then the other is trying to move the opponent, call it on the first contact. But what I often see, is that they arrive about together, and the contact is initiated by both, and is hard to pin on one person. I had an evaluator at camp recommend a philosophy which I'm going to try this year. He said, when it's the same two players at both ends play after play, call on team A when they're on defense, then next trip team B defense. If they still haven't learned, team A offense, and if necessary, team B offense. At this point, if one player complains that "she's doing it too!" you respond, "Don't worry, when she does it, I'll call it" and then do just that!

If that STILL doesn't clean it up, call the double. At that point they will most likely both be pulled (three fouls each, and screwing up the plays!). So, defense, defense, offense, offense, double. Be sure you're switching on fouls so that it's always you, or be sure you pre-game this with partner, and work extra-closely together. It would be conceivable to pull this off in the first quarter, and it would make a big difference. At least, that's the theory I'm going to work on these first few games. We'll see how it goes.

[Edited by rainmaker on Nov 14th, 2002 at 10:51 AM]

That sounds like a good idea. I like the D, D, O, O, Double patern early in the game. The next time it happens, I will try it and see how far down the patern I get. I plan on doing a better pregame with my co-official tonight, as well.

Ok guys, had a well respected vet address this issue at an association meeting lately. He said he would blow the whistle for a double foul, tell each of them that if they kept it up, he would only have to blow it four more times (double fouls again) and foul them both out, or they can clean it up.

He claims it works.

I don't know since I am first year (and ready to go!)

John

That may work, as well, but I think I am going to try the other first. Some of the veterans I have spoken with have indicated that the double should be saved as a last resort, kind of like the double personal or UC in football.

Hmmmm,
 

The WORST advice would be for a SINGLE official to call a double foul.

The BEST advice is to use your best "officials voice" and control the individual issue.

If your voice fails -- pick the VERY next contact between the two and then call it quickly and with confidence.

As an ex-college official and paid evaluator I HATE seeing one single official calling a double foul. In my opinion it shows lack of game control by that official.

Re: Hmmmm,
 

I disagree. The evaluators that are paid to evaluate me
disagree. And the people who pay me and the evaluators
disagree. Double fouls are (to quote a well known
inside trader) "a good thing". Further, the "best" advice
is often to evaluate each of these situations as they
present themselves. Sometimes you can talk players out
of being stupid, sometimes you can't.

puzzled by this one
 

If they arrive together, and the contact is initiated by both (your words) why not just call the double foul in the first place! The more times I read this, the angrier it makes me. Maybe my talented player and the opponents' thug are getting into it. Hang three (THREE!) on both of them and we lose. Call what you see. Don't be afraid to call something because "that's not how it's done", like a double foul. Besides, the double foul sends that message (this type of post play will not be tolerated) right away. Forget the cute mnemonics (D, D, O, O, double) and call what you see.

Re: puzzled by this one
 

I agree. A double foul is a double foul. They happen.
Call it. And it works, no need for that "I got one for you
here and you're gonna get one down there" stuff. It's like
giving a good hard yank on a puppy's choke collar. Gets
his attention right away.

Dan_Ref
 

I will disagree until my death . . .

When I evaluate (and my partners who evaluate) would ding an official if he called both fouls on the double foul.

I will leave with this thought . . . things DO NOT happen at the same time . . . something always happens first.

Re: Dan_Ref
 

That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, no matter
how wrong it is :) FWIW, I have never had a problem
calling a double foul, from a player, coach, observer or supervisor.

Dan
 

It wouldn't fly in your eval in the WAC, trust me on that one.

Re: Dan
 

Well, when I apply I'll remember not to ask Tim C for a referral. Trust me on that one.

Re: Dan_Ref
 

Respectfully, you are saying two different things here. Your phrase "would ding an official if he called both fouls on the double foul" implies that there WAS a double foul. I'd ding you if you ignored one and called one even though YOU JUDGED IT TO BE A DOUBLE FOUL.

However, I don't disagree with your phrase "something always happens first". If you judge a foul to have happened, making the ball dead, and subsequent action that would be a foul if the ball were live but not warranting a technical, then I have no problem with you calling one foul.

I'm saying don't ARBITRARILY (sp?) hit the defense on this trip and the next one, then the offense on the next two trips because that's what comes next in your "clean it up" sequence. If you see one first, call one. If you see them at the same time, call both.

An interesting aside, we varsity coaches get to rate the officials each year, 1 to 10. I gave only one guy a 10 (I was liberal with the 8s and 9s) and it was the only guy who called a double foul last season that I can recall. It was a physical game and his double foul call got the attention of both coaches that it wasn't going to be tolerated. We got the word to our players (that hadn't already figured it out) and the game was much cleaner. That game was better for the double. If it wasn't a double, the girl who believed she got wronged might've been looking to even the score at the other end.

I have called a few double fouls over the past couple of years and in every case I remember, it was a situation where I verbally warned both players to knock it off and got absolutely no response from either one, both just kept on shoving, so they both got a foul and a sharp message that if I talk they had better heed what I say to them or the whistle will be right behind. I do not make it a habit to "try to talk them out of the foul" , but if I think it will help it is another method that I may use to help my game.

Re: Dan_Ref
 

The "something" that happens first may not warrant a whistle at that time.We have no idea on a play what may escalate into something that we have to control.Each complete play has to be judged strictly on it's merits.When they start banging each other and you want to clean it up,you can't go back to something that you ignored at the start of the banging,and call it now.Double fouls are a tool for an official to use.Always have been.I don't agree with your concept at all,Tim.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Nov 14th, 2002 at 05:37 PM]

Re: Dan_Ref
 

Au contraire - it's not a foul until you judge it to be a foul (or fouls, in this case).

One of the things I noticed in the game was some verbiage exchanged before and during the extracurricular activity. There was no violation/foul (profanity, etc.), just competitive play that escalated (deteriorated?) into both players committing fouls. It sounds like a double foul may be a good idea, while watching for a defensive or offensive infractions that could escalate.

Re: Hmmmm,
 

Interesting...you say that the Best advice is to use your voice, even though the 2003 NCAA rulebook CLEARLY states "Verbal warnings given to players have proven to be ineffective...officials should not talk to players to try to prevent a foul but should call a foul when one occurs."

You however say to talk to them and if they don't listen, then call the very next foul...how about calling the first one?? How about if that first foul is one where they are both shoving each other then call the double foul??

A double foul shows lack of game control?? It is the fastest way to get the post action under control - both players get the message real quick - and we don't even have to talk to them!!

Any other rules or mechanics you just get rid of in the WAC??

Re: Re: Dan_Ref
 

An interesting aside, we varsity coaches get to rate the officials each year, 1 to 10. I gave only one guy a 10 (I was liberal with the 8s and 9s) and it was the only guy who called a double foul last season that I can recall. It was a physical game and his double foul call got the attention of both coaches that it wasn't going to be tolerated. We got the word to our players (that hadn't already figured it out) and the game was much cleaner. That game was better for the double. If it wasn't a double, the girl who believed she got wronged might've been looking to even the score at the other end. [/B][/QUOTE]
__________________________________________________ __________

Interesting rating system. I know in most areas in our State, Coaches don't have any input towards an officials rating.
Our Association, however, does let Coaches rate...Each Varsity Coach rates 20 Officials 1-20, with 1 being the highest(best) and 20 the lowest. If an official in our Association dosen't get rated by that Coach then the official gets a 21. (Lowest number tallied from all schools is the best.)
If a Coach doesn't rate an Official 1-20, then that Official usually does not get assigned to that Coach's school.
In fact, our rating system is 50% peer rating and 50% Coaches rating...so Coaches do have quite a bit of input.

Our peer rating system could probably be better...each Official rates the other Officials ... 25pts.(Can do Varsity and Playoff games) 20 (Can do "Big School" Varsity) 15 (Can do "Small School" Varsity and any J.V.) 10 (Can do J.V.) 5pts. (Can only do Frosh and Middle school)
Here you want a high score, obviously. After you are rated by at least 7 officials, then your total is divided by the amount of Officials that rated you, thus giving you your average.

I saw on this forum where someone stated..."the only thing worse than not having a rating system....is having a rating system." That was good, I hope they didn't mind me borrowing that line the other night. :)

RD

Rocky
 

As you are aware books often have comments in them that are not really what happens on the floor.

We "encourage" all officials to talk to players on the floor.

We reward common sense.

I think you have gone overboard with your last statement . . . but, for yet another time I will reference two examples of things that developed on the court and then made it to the books:

1) Long ago, when you were probably a pup, there was no signal for the mid-court violation. Officials started using the point from front court to back court gesture. That "eventually" became the signal. It wasn't in "The Book" but it was used even in NCAA playoffs.

2) For decades the three second signal was a horizontal movement across the midsection. Ed Hightower (I believe)started a revolution when he made the call from the side of his body in a vertical movement. That also became the accepted movement BEFORE it ever made it to any manual.

These are just two examples of things that change from what is written in the book.

Just like in Baseball, Basketball has people that take the rule book as the law and try to call exactly as it is written and others call by spirit and intent.

"Talking to players" is an excellent example of what REALLY happens in upper division games. Not only does the WAC condone this activity for officials so does the PAC 10 and the WCAC.

Now lets talk about "things happening at the same time":

We know from studies (the most current done by the NTSB) that the human mind cannot possibly recognize activities that occur in under .0445 seconds (say we refer to "the tie goes to the runner in Baseball" or the exact instant between the ball leaaving the shooters hand and the horn to end a period in Basketball). Therefore it is impossible to recognize which of two fouls happened first OR if they where at the "same instant."

In my expereince as an official and evaluator we would "rather" see an official make a quick, and authoritive call on one of two players rather than two.

An individual official calling a double foul, IN MY OPINION, shows that there was a process that occurred BEFORE this whistle and it should have been handled EARLIER by calling a single foul on one player, or as many fouls as necessary on subsequant trips down the court.

Cleaning up post play is not easy . . . but it can be handled.

Rocky, there are three basic types of officials:

People that call closely ("Hey, REF you going to continue that pitty-patty crap all night!")

People that call advantage-disadvantage ("Hey, REF let's make sure you call it the same BOTH ways!")

People that call no blood-no foul ("Hey, REF they're KILLING each other out there!")

As an evaluator I have never cared which of these you are as long as you call consistently.

Sorry for the long answer, however, you would be graded down for calling a double foul by yourself under the training that I have had.

[Edited by Tim C on Nov 14th, 2002 at 06:18 PM]

1)I've officiated for 44 years.During that time,there have ALWAYS been approved signals for both back-court and 3-second violations.The signals may have changed,but there has always been a signal available.I have also met and worked with a great variety of officials from all over during that 44 years.I have never heard,during this time,of the concept of training officials to not call double fouls.Is this practise indigenous to the wilds of the WAC?:D

I'm not entirely sure what all that long response had to do with the topic (especially the part about me being a pup - that was a long time ago), but oh well...I agree there are some things in the book that aren't "real life" on the court, but for God's sake, when it's in the POE for the NCAA then it better be done that way...and if you are marking people up or down in your evals contrary to what the POE's are - well...not much to say about that...

Re: Rocky
 

Tim --

I'm obviously not as experienced as you, so perhaps I'm missing something. What does it mean for "a single official to call a double foul?" How else could a double foul be called, except by a single official?

Wait, a dim light is beginning to glow in the very dark empty... Ah. You're saying, save the double foul as a last resort on a double whistle? My assignor doesn't like the double either, but he doesn't go quite that far.

Re: Re: Rocky
 

Wait, a dim light is beginning to glow in the very dark empty... Ah. You're saying, save the double foul as a last resort on a double whistle? My assignor doesn't like the double either, but he doesn't go quite that far.
[/B][/QUOTE]Juulie,Tim is basically saying that an official should NEVER call a double foul,under ANY circumstances.

Note into little book: When I get to the WAC, no more double fouls!! At least, not when Tim is evaluating...

Well, Sleeper.
If you are inclined to use the double foul, as newer officials are, make sure you know the proper administration of it before you go out on the court.
mick

Second game last night. Worked with an experienced official (15 years). His opinion was call the double foul if a double foul exists. We worked a big school (5A), JV Boys game, which was very fast and very physical. I talked to the players most of the night and watched the post play more carefully. Called pushes and holds, but never had to call the double.

At least in last night's game, there WERE things going on that could have precipitated a double foul, but I was able to call the first foul and better evaluate what was really going on.

One of the biggest differences was working with an experienced official. We had a pregame conference and at each quarter and timeout he gave me another couple of things to work on.

I have a girls tournament this weekend, so I am anxious to see how the theories apply there.

Mick, the double foul is reported and then the ball goes with the possession arrow. Correct?

Dunno, Sleeper.
I'd have to look it U.P. ;)

mick

<i>As you noted, sometimes it is quite easy to see "the first foul" when we concentrate. </i>

Double foul is the correct call, but you don't go to the arrow. Give the ball back to the offense with no reset of the shot clock.

AT the NCAA level, this is true. In a NF game, use the arrow.