Thoughts?
 

Didn't handle a situation very well last night in a state tournament game and would like opinions(please sir may I have another)

I call foul and report, we are shooting two I turn to face basket, players are not getting lined up, fouling team is now starting to huddle near bench behind me(time frame about 2-3 seconds) I turn around and table then tells me five fouls. I tell coach who already knew, and is busy 'coaching' I turn and signal to partners five fouls and tell table to start clock. First horn blows and the R for game starts walking to table telling coach lets go, coach who is not happy to begin with is barking "I get 20 seconds" I tell partner I've got it, they continue the dialogue and now second horn goes off and coach is in my ear that he didn't have time to set up play as other official was 'barking' at him. We administer free throws and coach is still percolating over scenario.

IMO in retrospect, table not buzzing distracted me somewhat. I should have communicated better to partners for fifth foul as they both seemed in the dark which would have prevented R coming to table which was unnecessary. New player had aready reported so we were good there. I"m thinking I could have walked to R and told him, relax, I've got it, although I did repeat I've got it,five fouls. This would have bought coach the few seconds he was looking for. Bottom line, he felt rushed, maybe rightfully so.

It was at critical time in a close game. That said, if coach would have ignored other official( as coaches tend to do when we're yelling let's go, etc.)
he would have had his extra few seconds. To my eye it was sloppy.

Did the player report before the 2nd horn? The intent of this rule is not to allow the coach a de facto timeout. It's to speed up the game. He has 20 seconds to get a sub to the table, not to coach his kids.

1) Late in a game, take some more time facing the table to give them time to tell you it's 5 fouls (or, maybe, know it in advance, or, maybe, listen the the PA announcer).

2) When in all this did the sub report? That's when the "time to talk to the team" ends, despite what the coach says about his/her 20 seconds.

3) Be REALLY CLEAR on notifying your partners.

4) Be REALLY CLEAR on notifying your partners.

Live & learn, next time it happens you'll do it BIG! Dont be so quick to leave the table & try to know when a player has 4 is all I would say.

The fact that you analize "how could I have handled that better" the morning after, speak volumes! Congrats on getting the game!!

5) Be REALLY CLEAR on notifying your partners. Guilty as charged. Could have done a better job, The onus is on me to let them know what's happening even if they're on 'break'.

Regarding # 2), good point and I honestly don't recall. I know he was milking it though.

Bob, I've been on the other end and not knowing the situation, I 'stand down' and let table official handle unless I'm beckoned. Thoughts?

Who's on break during a dead ball??

If the player is not on the X (not on his way to the X) by the 2nd horn... WHACK!

No PA guy? No player fouls on the board? Where are these guys playing, at the wreck center? :D

Player was legal, No PA or buzzer and really no indication of fifth foul.

Where's Chseagle when you need him?

In that case, "Partner, what do we have?" works well for me. I dont like not knowing whats going on out there.

He was posting here most likely.

Usually, that's good advice.

But, if, for example, the sub had already reported (and, heck, maybe even entered) and the administering official didn't see it; or if the official looks lost; or the opposing coach had already complained (perhaps earlier) about the "delay" and I was trying to head off trouble, or ...

Then, I might try to get involved, but the manner in which I did so would depend on the game and my partners.

This is not even something I would agonize over. It sounds like there was some confusion. Communicate and go on. If the coach wants to get upset about what an official told them, that is there problem. I would not care about that at all. Of course you could have communicated better, but I am sure the coach knew the deal and was trying to get an advantage. This is not a critical issue and if the coach wants to explain things to players he should call a timeout.

Peace

Perhaps I overlooked it but it wasn't clear to me in the situation whether the partner did or did not know that a DQ had just occurred or whether he was just rushing the coach for some other reason.

I don't know what he knew, as someone mentioned "partner, what do we have" is the norm before you start telling a coach to break it up. Other partner was in dark too. I didn't communicate enough, coupled with no horn, I can see their confusion somewhat. All easily avoidable. Not a big deal, but bothered me being a state tournament game and I pride myself on game management situations. I can promise you this, it won't happen again.

All valid points..............

Fullor30, the bottom line here is that the Coach tried to make his 20 second replacement time into a time-out. I think that's probably why your R came over and interjected himself into the situation. That's not what that time is meant for.

The morning after, this ^ is all that matters. Rather it happen at this level than in a college game.

Why would that matter at all?

Peace

He said it wont happen again & THAT is all that really matters...

If you're talking about my college statement, where would you rather show a lack of communication? In a HS game or in an NCAA game?

Neither. But then again I am not seeing how either changes my opinion. And this is a minor issue in my opinion that I doubt much would be made of it by anyone outside of the officials that were on the game. They did not violate a rule or change the outcome of the game. All I see is a coach overracting to something that is minor.

Peace

I dont believe fullor30 is tripping on the coach. It seems to me that he is more upset for not communicating with his crew effectively... but I'll let him speak for himself.

What doesnt seem like much to you, obviously meant alot to him as he posted the sitch.
I think we should be more critical of ourselves than others are.

I agree with most saying this is not a really big deal. What I have not seen:

You should "hand off" all foul outs to one of your partners. As soon as you know it is 5, you should let a non-calling official notify the player, the coach, and start the clock. It removes all risk of the coach chipping at you for calling the foul, and you having to be near the table for that. Doing this may have helped your situation a little bit.

Coach wasn't chipping about the foul. He was using a 20 second timeout that he's not entitled to use.

And your "remedy" is used in some areas, and no in others. Unless he's in an area that enforces this, then you don't know what he "should" do.

Coach, timer, then player

True, in my ballgames we handle our own business. Coaches dont scare us, we have tools for handling unsporting coaches.

I don't do college other than a few juco games.

I don't want it to happen at any level.

You still have not answered my question. What does this have to do with what level this took place?

Again, it is about perspective. Out of all the things we can worry about, this is not top on most official's list. Yes, he might have posted it, but like a lot of other officials that post things or ask for advice only to find out that this is just a blip on the screen of their career. I doubt many people even noticed the situation the way he did, which is the point of my comments. And since it was a playoff game, it probably had little significance in the bigger picture. It will not be the last time he or any of us have a little miscommunication in a game. I had one last night, but no one is talking about that. I realize we all want to be perfect, but we will not be. And it appears that it had nothing to do with the game but the fact the coach wanted to overreact to something (which they tend to do a great deal of the time).

I mentor enough officials where they call me asking about a situation thinking their career is over when something happens, only to find that it was not a big deal in the end. This sounds like that kind of situation when it had nothing to do with a call or a rule. No coach was T'd or ejected from the game as a result. This is why I am trying to see what it matters in the end. OK, now communicate better next time. We call can do that every game we work. You live and learn.

Peace

My badd. If I have to make a mistake or have a breakdown in communication, I'd rather in happen on the smallest stage I work as opposed to the biggest stage I work. That's all.

I know exactly what Jeff is conveying, and he's right, it's not that big of a deal, It's just another lesson to file away for next time. I like discussing situations, eliminating little things, as this was, to fine tune your game to avoid the possibility of something festering. I see plenty of guys who can 'call' a good game, look terrific out there, but a little speed bump comes up, and the game gets rocky

Well actually D1 is the highest profile I would worry about and I do not even know if this specific situation would even make the broadcast. To be real, there are more people that pay attention to high school than just about any small college level. At least that is the case around here.

Peace

I suggested a good practice that would be prudent for all officials in every foul out situation. It should be used in all areas at all times, in my opinion. :D

You are 100% correct and pretty introspective to grasp that. That is exactly why handing foul out situations off is smart. It eliminates virtually all risk of that particular speed bump.

For those of you who have evaluated or been evaluated at a State Tournament...you should know exactly what fullor is talking about.

At least, here in these parts...every little thing seems to get "judged" at a State Tournament. The highest rated officials move on to the Championship game. And when every official there is "good"...sometimes the little things can separate said officials.

Sure, this may not seem like a "big deal"...but, trust me...it can be when you are being evaluated at a State Tournament.

Fullor...who knows, maybe this R wanted to show that he was in control...that he could manage a situation even when the table did not do a very good job of communicating.

I am not saying that is why the R came over...but, I have seen officials officiate to the evaluaters at State Tourneys before...sadly, even at their partners expense.

I am not sure you know what he means by State Tournament. That is not the same as working the last game or the championship game at a level where the state crowns a champion. He was only likely working a Regional (if it took place in the last day or so) which is considered the State Tournament here. It is the first round of games to move on in the tournament. Actually it is unlikely that he or many are evaluated at that level at all as there are so many playoff games taking place at the Regional level. Or if that is the case he would not know about it. It is not common to have people sent out that early in the tournament.

Peace

Correct, yet there is some angst possibly by folks to 'get it right' I know my antenna is up during a tournament game.

Nothing wrong with that. More people are watching. I just would not beat yourself up about it. Nothing wrong with asking what went wrong.

Peace