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stiffler3492 Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:03pm

Was told I hustle too much
 
Had a legitimately fun sophomore boys game tonight. I'd worked with this partner several times already this season, and my assignor would ever allow it, I'd be fine doing all my games with him.

One of his friends was in the stands, a guy who had officiated for a long time. He came into the locker room with us at halftime, and he told me I hustled too much. He didn't mean end-to-end hustle, but he meant in the frontcourt, I moved too much when I was at either position.

Have you all ever been told that before?

26 Year Gap Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:07pm

Slow down applies to many things in officiating. Moving to improve can be done deliberately so that you do not look like an electron. See if you can get film of yourself working a game. That is the best way to understand.

grunewar Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:10pm

As L, I have a tendency to close down and then move very quckly across the lane. My partners used to complain about it, but, it's something we discuss in pre-game and I am aware of and need to continue to work on......

River Ref Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:23pm

At a camp once I was told that I needed to square my shoulders to what I'm watching at all times. I responded that my neck is quicker and that my shoulders end up that direction. I was told again to square the shoulders so that (they)could tell where I was watching. What say you guys?????

bob jenkins Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by River Ref (Post 730513)
At a camp once I was told that I needed to square my shoulders to what I'm watching at all times. I responded that my neck is quicker and that my shoulders end up that direction. I was told again to square the shoulders so that (they)could tell where I was watching. What say you guys?????

It's part of comunicating with your crew. It tells your partners that you've "accepted the play" and they can now look off ball.

Blindolbat Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:07pm

I think my 3rd year reffing I was doing a JVBoys game. I was being evaluated and after the game I was told that even though my calls were correct and I had a good presence on the court, I wasn't sweating enough.:confused: I needed to look like I was working more.
I found this funny since at the time I was about 22 years old, probably in the best shape of anyone in our association, and was told this by a 60 yo that retired at the end of that year cause he was too slow to keep up anymore.

APG Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blindolbat (Post 730524)
I think my 3rd year reffing I was doing a JVBoys game. I was being evaluated and after the game I was told that even though my calls were correct and I had a good presence on the court, I wasn't sweating enough.:confused: I needed to look like I was working more.
I found this funny since at the time I was about 22 years old, probably in the best shape of anyone in our association, and was told this by a 60 yo that retired at the end of that year cause he was too slow to keep up anymore.

Oh to be in one's early 20's and in shape. ;)

derwil Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 730525)
Oh to be in one's early 20's and in shape. ;)

Pear is a shape.........

mbyron Wed Feb 16, 2011 08:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by stiffler3492 (Post 730505)
Had a legitimately fun sophomore boys game tonight. I'd worked with this partner several times already this season, and my assignor would ever allow it, I'd be fine doing all my games with him.

One of his friends was in the stands, a guy who had officiated for a long time. He came into the locker room with us at halftime, and he told me I hustled too much. He didn't mean end-to-end hustle, but he meant in the frontcourt, I moved too much when I was at either position.

Have you all ever been told that before?

I distinguish between hustling and rushing. Hustling is getting into position quickly: knowing where you're supposed to be (during play, time out, intermission, etc.) and getting there with at least a jog.

Rushing is moving too fast: rotating too fast, signaling too fast, hitting the whistle too fast, bailing as Trail before the rebounding is done, etc.

I did not see you work, so I can't tell you what your critic meant. But it's possible he thought that, instead of "moving to improve," you were just moving. Pointless bouncing out to the sideline and back is distracting and, by definition, takes you out of position.

If you have some film take a look and see if you know why you're moving. You can also get some other feedback to see whether other people are seeing the same thing. On the court, try to stand still more as lead, especially when the ball is above the FT line.

JugglingReferee Wed Feb 16, 2011 08:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blindolbat (Post 730524)
I think my 3rd year reffing I was doing a JVBoys game. I was being evaluated and after the game I was told that even though my calls were correct and I had a good presence on the court, I wasn't sweating enough.:confused: I needed to look like I was working more.
I found this funny since at the time I was about 22 years old, probably in the best shape of anyone in our association, and was told this by a 60 yo that retired at the end of that year cause he was too slow to keep up anymore.

Wow.... quite possibly the worst advice ever. Toss that advice quicker than that guy thought of it.

tref Wed Feb 16, 2011 09:49am

Confident, purposeful movements can be a very promoting factor when it comes to getting that buy-in.

Andy Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blindolbat (Post 730524)
I think my 3rd year reffing I was doing a JVBoys game. I was being evaluated and after the game I was told that even though my calls were correct and I had a good presence on the court, I wasn't sweating enough.:confused: I needed to look like I was working more.
I found this funny since at the time I was about 22 years old, probably in the best shape of anyone in our association, and was told this by a 60 yo that retired at the end of that year cause he was too slow to keep up anymore.

If this is all they've got...you were probably doing a pretty good job!

Freddy Wed Feb 16, 2011 02:23pm

Hustler
 
If by "hustling" the video actually shows you getting caught up in the horserace pace of the players so that you look like a squirrel on a treadmill, then something's not right.
If by "hustling" the video actually shows you never getting settled to view your primary so that you become one of those "wanderers" for no particular reason, then something's not right.
If by "hustling" the video actually shows you bobbing and weaving your head all the time like a bobblehead, then something's not right.
A great clinician once taught that once one is settled in his primary, everything necessary to see can be seen from within the distance of the occasional "karaoke (sp?) step"--one crossover and another lateral step beyond that.
If by "hustling" the video actually shows you quick enough down court that you don't get beat by even the most unexpected turnover and fastbreak, then you've got it together!
From a former squirrel, wanderer, and bobblehead...

reffish Wed Feb 16, 2011 02:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by River Ref (Post 730513)
At a camp once I was told that I needed to square my shoulders to what I'm watching at all times. I responded that my neck is quicker and that my shoulders end up that direction. I was told again to square the shoulders so that (they)could tell where I was watching. What say you guys?????

Don't respond as you did and try to square your shoulders quicker. And smile. And say thank you.

stiffler3492 Wed Feb 16, 2011 02:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 730821)
If by "hustling" the video actually shows you getting caught up in the horserace pace of the players so that you look like a squirrel on a treadmill, then something's not right.
If by "hustling" the video actually shows you never getting settled to view your primary so that you become one of those "wanderers" for no particular reason, then something's not right.
If by "hustling" the video actually shows you bobbing and weaving your head all the time like a bobblehead, then something's not right.
A great clinician once taught that once one is settled in his primary, everything necessary to see can be seen from within the distance of the occasional "karaoke (sp?) step"--one crossover and another lateral step beyond that.
If by "hustling" the video actually shows you quick enough down court that you don't get beat by even the most unexpected turnover and fastbreak, then you've got it together!
From a former squirrel, wanderer, and bobblehead...

I tried to be less of a squirrel in the second half, and I found myself able to see the same amount, if not more. I guess I was trying to make my movements to improve too deliberate.

I'm hoping to get the tape.

Adam Wed Feb 16, 2011 02:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by reffish (Post 730829)
Don't respond as you did and try to square your shoulders quicker. And smile. And say thank you.

Yabut!

tref Wed Feb 16, 2011 02:33pm

Thanks for the check... see ya next summer!

TheOracle Wed Feb 16, 2011 02:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by stiffler3492 (Post 730505)
Had a legitimately fun sophomore boys game tonight. I'd worked with this partner several times already this season, and my assignor would ever allow it, I'd be fine doing all my games with him.

One of his friends was in the stands, a guy who had officiated for a long time. He came into the locker room with us at halftime, and he told me I hustled too much. He didn't mean end-to-end hustle, but he meant in the frontcourt, I moved too much when I was at either position.

Have you all ever been told that before?

Think two things:

"Economy of movement" and "move with purpose at all times".

Always hustle, but controlled energy looks better.

26 Year Gap Wed Feb 16, 2011 03:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by stiffler3492 (Post 730831)
I tried to be less of a squirrel in the second half, and I found myself able to see the same amount, if not more. I guess I was trying to make my movements to improve too deliberate.

I'm hoping to get the tape.

There was a guy I knew who was very well-respected who was a squirrel. So, I had that burned into my brain. But, he had many years under his belt, and I didn't. So, it was a surprise to me when some officials told me to move more slowly because it looked like I was chasing the play.

I have tried to be much more deliberate about my movement on the court and I have found that it works. It helps also with mechanics and reporting as I am more deliberate in those areas. The two go hand in glove.

Camron Rust Wed Feb 16, 2011 08:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by River Ref (Post 730513)
At a camp once I was told that I needed to square my shoulders to what I'm watching at all times. I responded that my neck is quicker and that my shoulders end up that direction. I was told again to square the shoulders so that (they)could tell where I was watching. What say you guys?????

Squaring your shoulders does make it easier for your partners to see what you're covering so that you don't have no/two/three sets of eyes on the ball. If your shoulders are away, it helps them realize you are not on ball and they better be. If your shoulders are towards the ball, they know you're on ball and it is OK to look elsewhere.

SWMOzebra Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 730821)
A great clinician once taught that once one is settled in his primary, everything necessary to see can be seen from within the distance of the occasional "karaoke (sp?) step"--one crossover and another lateral step beyond that.

I have heard this at camps as well and believe it to be true when working 3-whistle games. Unfortunately, where I'm at we still work almost exclusively 2-whistle for HS and lower ... and this thinking simply doesn't apply, especially when you're the T.

26 Year Gap Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SWMOzebra (Post 731206)
I have heard this at camps as well and believe it to be true when working 3-whistle games. Unfortunately, where I'm at we still work almost exclusively 2-whistle for HS and lower ... and this thinking simply doesn't apply, especially when you're the T.

That is true, but you don't have to be an electron while working the arc.

chartrusepengui Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap (Post 731208)
That is true, but you don't have to be an electron while working the arc.

Ahhh ... the days when I could actually move like an electron.......;)

26 Year Gap Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui (Post 731211)
Ahhh ... the days when I could actually move like an electron.......;)

Then there are the 'neutrons' who stay at a point fixed at the intersection of the sideline and division line.....

chartrusepengui Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:16am

I worked with one of them the other night. He looked real funny standing there in the corner all night.

A couple of refs watching from stands called him the zebra mussel as he always "stuck" to that spot. When he was lead he stood directly under the basket and never moved. It was a tough game to do with him. Fortunately, it was a one time deal and I was stepping in for a friend who had a family emergency.

26 Year Gap Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui (Post 731221)
I worked with one of them the other night. He looked real funny standing there in the corner all night.

A couple of refs watching from stands called him the zebra mussel as he always "stuck" to that spot. When he was lead he stood directly under the basket and never moved. It was a tough game to do with him. Fortunately, it was a one time deal and I was stepping in for a friend who had a family emergency.

Did he leave a trail of mucous?

chartrusepengui Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap (Post 731223)
Did he leave a trail of mucous?

well, nobody was slipping or cleaning the floor:eek:

mbyron Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui (Post 731211)
Ahhh ... the days when I could actually move like an electron.......;)

You could move in a quantum probability amplitude? Wow! :D

Freddy Thu Feb 17, 2011 04:11pm

Still Applies for 2 Man
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SWMOzebra (Post 731206)
I have heard this at camps as well and believe it to be true when working 3-whistle games. Unfortunately, where I'm at we still work almost exclusively 2-whistle for HS and lower ... and this thinking simply doesn't apply, especially when you're the T.

I still do two-man occasionally, in fact I have a DH in a couple of hours. Unless there's something where I need to sprint to get to another position, I'll still do the "karaoke two-step", whether at L or T, to get where I need to see the slot or the play better. If necessary, one move will be followed by another, but I still do it all the time whenever I get to do two-man as well as three-man.

The guys I see moving all over the place, sprinting back and forth like an ADD inflicted ant, usually don't get themselves into any sort of better position to see what they need to see better anyway.

Since it's fresh on my mind, I'll try to report back on how it works in two-man after the games tonight.

Scrapper1 Fri Feb 18, 2011 09:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by stiffler3492 (Post 730505)
he meant in the frontcourt, I moved too much when I was at either position.

Have you all ever been told that before?

Yes, at camp I've been told that I move too much as the Trail. Problem is, I can't seem to stop it. I find that when I stop or even slow down too much, I inevitably end up straight-lined at a bad time. Maybe I just worked too much 2-whistle coming up and got used to moving out to the jump circle and back to the sideline.

In any case, I try (not always successfully, probably) to settle just above the 28' line as Trail and then work 2 steps up to 2 steps down from there. That usually keeps me from jitterbugging too much.

SWMOzebra Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:27am

Move to where you need to for the angle
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 731363)
I still do two-man occasionally, in fact I have a DH in a couple of hours. Unless there's something where I need to sprint to get to another position, I'll still do the "karaoke two-step", whether at L or T, to get where I need to see the slot or the play better. If necessary, one move will be followed by another, but I still do it all the time whenever I get to do two-man as well as three-man.

The guys I see moving all over the place, sprinting back and forth like an ADD inflicted ant, usually don't get themselves into any sort of better position to see what they need to see better anyway.

Since it's fresh on my mind, I'll try to report back on how it works in two-man after the games tonight.

I'm interested in hearing your report. My original comment wasn't designed to imply that running all over the place as T is SOP in 2-whistle. I generally agree with you that 2-4 steps for angles is sufficient.

However, when the ball goes opposite of your position and is well-above the FT line extended ... I personally move where I need to for angles and sometimes this means taking half dozen steps diagonally into the BC. If the ball squirts out of bounds on the L's sideline and he looks to me for help, I'm sureashell not coming up with a jump ball signal because of poor positioning.

Rich Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:31am

As the T in 2-person, I'm moving wherever and whenever I need to in order to get good angles and not get straightlined. Period.

tomegun Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:56am

I avoid using the word hustle as much as possible. The goal of getting into the best position will require a sprint at times and absolutely no movement other times. Some younger officials will hear hustle and think they must always be moving. The end result may be hustling right out of position.

tomegun Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 731573)
As the T in 2-person, I'm moving wherever and whenever I need to in order to get good angles and not get straightlined. Period.

I agree.

JRutledge Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:47am

I will just say this about the advice. It is one person's advice. That is all it is. Take it for what it is worth and if the person said something to you that makes sense, use it. If it does not make sense, then do not use it. This is why you go to many camps and get evaluated many times, you will hear conflicting things from time to time. We all do not officiate the same.

Peace

Rich Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 731593)
I will just say this about the advice. It is one person's advice. That is all it is. Take it for what it is worth and if the person said something to you that makes sense, use it. If it does not make sense, then do not use it. This is why you go to many camps and get evaluated many times, you will hear conflicting things from time to time. We all do not officiate the same.

Peace

Exactly. And there is no "best practices" that we can shoehorn into every piece of advice given.

Example: At one camp I attended I had two consecutive clinicians tell me (1) rotate quicker and (2) don't rotate so fast. Years ago I would've found frustration -- today I try to remember which clinician said it so I can adjust if I get on his court again later in the camp.

Freddy Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:05am

Report
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SWMOzebra (Post 731570)
I'm interested in hearing your report. My original comment wasn't designed to imply that running all over the place as T is SOP in 2-whistle. I generally agree with you that 2-4 steps for angles is sufficient.

However, when the ball goes opposite of your position and is well-above the FT line extended ... I personally move where I need to for angles and sometimes this means taking half dozen steps diagonally into the BC. If the ball squirts out of bounds on the L's sideline and he looks to me for help, I'm sureashell not coming up with a jump ball signal because of poor positioning.

Yep, for this two-man dh I was trying to pay attention to how much I moved to get in position to see what I needed to see. With the obvious exceptions of changes of possession and the occasional situations where an OOB line needed to be covered on a deflection, the karaoke two-step was all that was needed to see what needed to be seen well--sometimes one two-step followed by another two-step.
Of course there are situations where an immediate sprint is necessary, but I think the context of this discussion originated with the critical point that the official seemed to be zipping back and forth all over the place.
Hope things work well for you whatever adjustments you make!

referee99 Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:34am

You are a talented official!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 731904)
the karaoke two-step was all that was needed

I can hardly speak clearly with the whistle in the mouth!


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