Kid secures ball while lying on her back. She sits up, and then pivots on her rear. Is this legal? I can't remember what we decided, the last time we discussed it. I didn't call it....

Legal
 

Legal if I understand what you just discribed. It is only a travel if the ball handler tries to get up without a dribble. Setting up off a ball handlers back is not illegal.

Peace

The play you describe is legal in high school.
Take a look at the casebook 4.43.5B
Also note that the concept of a pivot is only defined with regard to a foot. There is no such thing as a pivot butt, knee, elbow, head, etc.
I believe you must look at the player's feet to determine traveling. In your case, if the player is spinning on her butt, consider how is she generating the power for the spin. Is she pushing off on the floor with her hands or feet? If she is using her feet to turn in circles I would call a travel if her foot movements violate the traveling restrictions in 4-43. ie pick up and put back down.
To support this claim I cite the definition of traveling in 4-43 and the definition of pivot in 4-33:
"Traveling is moving a FOOT OR FEET in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball."
"A pivot takes place when a player who is holding the ball steps once, or more than once, in any direction with the same foot while the other foot, called the pivot foot, is kept at its point of contact with the floor."
These rules say nothing about moving your butt! Therefore, we must consider butt movements as unrestricted and legal. So, I say that if the girl sits up, then picks up both feet and holds them in the air, she may push on the floor with her hands and cause herself to spin on her butt like a top if she so desires!!! I would allow it as a legal play. Of course, one of my partners would probably call a travel, so my whistle is a moot point.
Also remember that if a player dives for a ball on the floor, obtains possession, and then slides, it is not traveling. Sliding is legal until the player's momentum stops.
Lastly, I will concede that this is definitely a gray area in the rules and that different officials will have different opinions on the play.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Nov 10th, 2002 at 04:01 AM]

In FIBA, rolling on the floor is considered travelling. Is that the same in NF and NCAA?

Having said that, I don't know that pivoting on your butt constitutes a travel.

Yes, Jay,
In HS rolling from front to back or from back to front is a travel.
I believe it is the same in NCAA, but we will have to get a definitive another from an NCAA official as I am not one.
But (no pun intended) having a clear understanding of the rolling interpretation doesn't seem to help one bit with the butt question, now does it!

We talked about it here six months or a year ago. I just cant remember what we decided, and I can't find the thread.

If he/she doesn't make any further attempt to get up, I've got nothing.

Even if she uses here feet to propel herself as NevadaRef pointed out?

The question is is she trying to get up or is she moving to avoid being tied up by an opponent? If she simply lifts a cheek in the process of making a pass, I have nothing.

We had our zone meeting tonight and discussed this type of situation.

Our presenter's point of view was to treat the butt as a
pivot area. Thus with that definition, the player would be pivoting on their butt.

On a related topic, A1 is holding the ball with both knees on the floor. A1 lifts one knee. Travel?

Well, according to your presenter, wouldn't that be a pivot knee?

That was exactly his interpretation. I'm not sure that I agree though.

Nor do I. As I wrote previously, if you believe the player is attempting to get up or moving to prevent the defense from getting the ball, call the travel. JMHO

That was one question...then another question arose..."Can she use her feet to propel her in circles?"

I say sure, as long as she dosen't try to get up.
Even though her feet are being lifted and pushed back on the floor to propel her...she still has her butt as the "pivot".

RD

By pivoting on her tuckus, do you mean that she rotated her entire body using her tuckus as the center of the circle and her feet described the circle?

I had a scrimmage Saturday where a player was flat on his back & raised himself off the floor with his feet & shoulders. Very athletic move, sadly he came beack down
before he could get the pass off.

I believe in gymnastics terminology that is called a "kip up"! (Sp)
Very athletic move! But, I'm not sure that it wouldn't have been a travel anyway...unless he passed the ball while laying on his back and then performed the "kip up".

RD

mmmm, I don't know, I think I would have given it to him just because of the "geeze" factor.

"Geeze, what a great move....hey wait! Is that allowed??!" ;)

Anyway, got a reference for your ruling? I seriously doubt
it's a travel...

How about the rule which states you can't attempt to stand up without dribbling the ball?

(Sorry - I'm exhausted, and not moving from my chair to find the rule reference.)

Hmmmmm, you could be right...I was just refering to the rule 4-43-5b...A player holding the ball: "After gaining possession while on the floor and touching with other than hand or foot, may not attempt to get up or stand."

My question was/is...Is "kipping up" attempting to get up or stand.?

RD

maybe, but I believe if he passes the ball he's ok.
like picking up the pivot foot before passing/shooting.

anyway, my philosophy is any demonstration of athleticism
that I am completely incapable of is legal :)

Yes, this is the question.

That's exactly the singular objective of a "kip up". :)

my two cents
 

In NFHS, a player on the floor is not allowed to roll. The question I need an answer for is: "Is the person rolling from cheek to cheek?" When a player is standing up, the pivot is usually done on the ball of the foot. On occaision, I have seen players pivot on the heel, then on the ball of the foot, then on the heel again. In essense, the original pivot spot was moved because of the heel/toe action. I have called a travel in those cases - mostly under the explanation of dragging the pivot foot. So, in the case above, if I determine movement from the pivot area, for whatever reason, I would call a travel violation. If the player more or less stays in the same spot, I would allow the pivot action.

I've got travelling. On the back, a player may sit up. No other movement of the body is allowed. They can't turn around, they are stuck with the direction they are facing. It is essentially the same as rolling over (independent of momentum).

Me too, Camron,
I will let them pivot from the waist; but lift/twist/contort the body below the waist while holding the ball, and I have movement outside the prescribed limits.

mick

I believe the situation in the case book (page34) says that the only thing he/she can do in this situation is sit up. If the player once sitting up makes movements in an attempt to avoid a defensive player that causes a "Cheek" to be moved I have a travel.

I guess that calling travelling in this case would really be a bum call then!

A 1/2-fast bum call.

Yes - that's the rule I was reference.

Just think - what is the (intended) end result of 'kipping up?'

BTW, guys and gals, please - no more discussion on momentum. I just took a physics test today dealing with that very issue, among others :(

Spent some time in England? :D

So how did the organic chem test go? (I read your away messages every day) :)

AAMF,I did.They talk funny over there.

And they like their brownpop warm(shudder).Not very civilized.

Well, I did fairly well, but not as well as I would have liked (considering I'm a chemistry major).

BTW, on the topic of away messages, are you writing a book?

RD [/B][/QUOTE]
BTW, guys and gals, please - no more discussion on momentum. I just took a physics test today dealing with that very issue, among others :( [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah... The motion thing.... Who was it that said.... "A butt in motion tends to stay in motion"? Some law or another....
BTW I have a travel... I would allow the sitting up, but under the advantage/disadvantage law (I believe it's the law just before the "motion" law), I see an unfair advantage being gained with the pivot....

Yeah... The motion thing.... Who was it that said.... "A butt in motion tends to stay in motion"? Some law or another....
[/B][/QUOTE]The quote was probably by a young,single guy-because,unfortunately,it certainly ain't a Marriage Law!

Pivot
 

In ours area this is nothing, we permit a player to gain control of the ball, come to one knee and start a dribble or pass. If the player go from the floor to a direct standing position, then it's traveling.

Re: Pivot
 

You must be kidding!!! The only legal movement when laying on the floor is to sit up (and only if they are on their back to start with). Anything else is traveling, especially if they rise to one knee.

I e-mailed our provincial interpreter and he said that lifting one knee would not constitute a travel. Only when he raises the second. That was not my point of view, but I will follow my interpreter's wishes.

Jay,the problem is that getting to the knees in the first place from a laying or sitting position is a travel.What they do after they get there is irrelevant.I agree with Camron.

JR
Gotcha!

travel or not?
 

what if player is in front court sitting with ball, facing back court, does a 180 spin on butt,lifting both feet as spinning to pass to team mate running past them. travel?

Re: travel or not?
 

Yes, this would be a travel. It would be considered the same as rolling to gain an advantage.

pivot cheek
 

We call that a travel. A player lying on the floor
can sit up only. They can't make any other movement
with their body. Since you can have a pivot foot--
you can't have a pivot cheek.

Re: pivot cheek
 

Good call, mary quinn,
And welcome here!

The player may sit up, start dribbling, and then get busy, yes?
mick

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

The player may sit up, start dribbling, and then get busy, yes? mick

Mick,
I would say "yes", but then again I am not sure.

Wednesday I was playing pick-up ball with a group of guys who call me "the ref" (wish they had never found out). I dove for loose ball, secured it while laying face down on the ground, began dribbling while my chest was still contacting the ground, then stood up and started down court. Everyone called for a travel, but I explained that it wasn't a travel because I never lifted my "pivot" prior to starting my dribble. Then, on my way home, I got to thinking "was that a legal play". I am less sure of myself now having read through this thread.

Josh

Yes - that is legal the way you described it. Remember, it is a fundamental rule of basketball that you cannot travel while dribbling.

Josh <u>the Ref</u>,
What Mark Padgett said is gospel, as always.

When you are on the ground in any position, you may always pass; also, if you haven't already ended your dribble, you may always dribble and then get up, ... or just keep sitting there.

And you must be "the Ref", if you doubt yourself from time to time.

mick

The four things you can do without committing a violation if you have the ball on the ground (assuming you haven't ended a dribble) are: dribble, pass, shoot, request a timeout.

Oh yeah, you can foul, too.

You can hold the ball,too.