What kind of foul is this?
 

A1 is fouled by B1 in the act of shooting. B1 then tells the official that his call is horse-sh**. B1 is charged with a technical foul. As the official nears the reporting area, he hears a crowd reaction and turns around to see A1 clapping in the face of B1. A technical foul is then charged to A1. These technicals are several seconds apart BTW.

How is the penalties assessed in this situation?

I will give my answer or what I think when I get some feedback.

Peace

Ah, the dreaded false multiple/double cryptofoul.

I'm going false doubles on the Ts. B gets the final two free throws and the ball.

Assessed in the order in which they occurred. A1 shoots 2 for the personal. Any A player shoots 2 for the T. Any B player shoots 2 for A1's T. B gets the ball at the division line.

Glad you posted this here. I was waiting for Tanner to do so.

Seems that the majority will agree with us.

I'm guessing the argument was that the two Ts should be classed as a Double Foul.

Something like that. ;)

Peace

I'll get the discussion on the right track.

What is the definition of "approximately the same time"?

I was surprised he didn't. Then again I have a lot of free time now. :D

Peace

Personally, I wouldn't think it included a time period long enough for an official to get close to the reporting area with his back turned to the play.

+1 and reporting at approximately the same time does not equate to occurring at approximately the same time.

Even if you give up "approximately the same time," which is debatable, the fouls were not committed by the opponents against each other. No way is this a double T.

I'm going with it being close enough related to same play. Double T. I know this is not part of OP. but do we have any help from a partner(s)? I guarantee you A not waiting a few seconds and then deciding he's gonna go over and clap in B's face.

Well, I was going to and lost track of time....before I knew what was going on it was 1pm and I hadn't gone to lunch yet.

But is does make then simultaneous technicals which are simply technicals on each team at "app. the same time".

Enforcement is the same as a double T.

I never lose track of time to the point of forgetting lunch. I have to keep fuel in this well oiled machine!

LOL!!! That is what we call it now. :D

Peace

1. A1 shoots 2 free throws for personal foul.
2. Any Team A player(s) shoots 2 free throws for unsporting technical
3. Any Team B player(s) shoots 2 free throws for unsporting technical
4. Team B gets throw-in from divsion line

I didn't look at anybody else's responses yet so I'm sure this has already been said.

Not this scenario.

I have a shooting foul, followed by a false double. The technicals are two separate incidents.

If NFHS this is correct

Don't have my books with me, but is what you just said in the book? Because simultaneously does not mean "approximately the same time" - it means "the same time".

This was my original answer to the letter.

Peace

NFHS 4-19-10

A simultaneous foul (personal or technical) by opponents is a situation in which there is a foul by both teams which occurs at approximately the same time, but are not committed by opponents against each other.

The penalty for simultaneous fouls includes no FTs and the ball placed at the POI.

Fair enough. I stand corrected.

Yeah, but simultaneous is usually when we cannot determine which took place first or last. This is not the case here as the officials did not call them at the same time in this play. A1 reacted to the T being given. I cannot see how we can make this simultaneous.

Peace

The only difference between a false double foul and a simultaneous foul here is the question of what is "approximately the same time".

Is it one second? Is it three seconds? Is it until the foul is reported?

It is an area that has no answer in the book, and as far as I can tell, no official interpretation from the Federation.

I personally think that is reading a lot into the play when from all previous information from the NF that they have always given those as an example of things that happen at the same time. Not we call a foul, then call another foul as a result of the first action. That sounds like a stretch of what the rules says. Maybe they could clarify, but these should like events that happen one after the other.

Just as I said this, HB responded to me. ;)

Peace

100% agree.

Maybe an official interp from the Federation would be in order. Or maybe change the rule and always shoot all technicals in the order they occur then go to POI.

Can you give us some background on the game?

Check your PM over "there" and I sent you the email response.

Peace

That's how I would have handled it. False double situation so you penalize in order they occurred. I guess is depends on how you interpret "at approximately the same time".

The game had the situation described in the original post.

I'm not sure how it was handled, but it prompted a question about it to a local veteran official and rules "guru". He thought and thought and finally called our state association. His quandary was what does app. the same time mean.

His answer from them was that there was nothing in the rules or interps to answer that question. The lady there said that she was fine with saying it was "app. the same time" in this situation until the first technical was reported.

That makes this a simultaneous technical. No FTs and the ball at POI which is the FTs for the first personal foul.

I don't necessarily agree and there was no "official" interp given. It was strictly a meeting of the minds on the phone.

I think that you could go with a false double T and back it by rule. I also think that with her explanation you could go with a simultaneous situation.

It's all how you articulate it to the coach really.

Got it. Thanks.

Over "there". That is a good way to describe that place at times.

I meant more as a who what when where.

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This is what I feel like over there sometimes. :D

Peace

High school game in Illinois, a few weeks ago.

I can't remember the particular teams.

fair enough

I will say that if I was working with tjones and he made the original foul call, I would probably just agree with B1 and there would be no technical foul!:D

If you get a chance, would you please send me his response?

Ha Ha.... touche! In that case, B1 would probably be right. I would penalize him by making him carry my gear bag.

That is a pretty stiff penalty considering.