I was working two-man last night with a veteran (23 years) official in Missouri. He was lead, he called a foul on the baseline. I thought it was a shooting foul so I instructed the players to line up. After reporting the foul, he said it was non-shooting.

The coach questioned whether or not his player was shooting so he (my partner) came to me and said, "I had the foul on the floor. What did you see?" I simply stated, "I'm not going to change your call," and I put the ball into play without further argument from the coach.

From my angle, it looked like the foul occured during the act of shooting, but I was out in the trail position.

Question:
1. Should I have over-ruled him since he asked, or did I do the right thing?

2. When is it proper to over-rule?

"2. When is it proper to over-rule?"
never......all you can do is give your partner the information, he needs to decide whether or not to change his call.

First of all, it is not your job to overrule anyone. So take that terminology out of your head and mouth. Your partner is an equal part of the team. He made the call, you have to live with it. Maybe he saw something that you did not. But it is not your job to overrule any of his calls. All you can do is give information and if he changes it, that is up to him. But if you are doing that on a regular basis, I might start to question what are you missing?

Peace

I think the rule is, you should never overrule. Never. You may go and offer your partner the opportunity to change his or her own call, but it can never be overruled. I overruled a call once, but I should not have. I lost my temper with my partner, and got... well, I guess hasty would be the best word. I'll never do it again.

The general agreement on this board is that Mick has the last word on working with a partner who makes calls that you'd like to over-rule:

Get in,
Get done,
Get out...

I would worry less about the "over-rule" and more on pregame.

You should know before he reports that foul, what you are doing. The whole siuation could have been prevented with better communication.

As to your "over-rule" question, the only time you may want to pull him aside and ask what it going on, is if he is mis-applying a rule. Even then you tread lightly. This was a judgement call, keep out.

My question is, why didn't you already know it wasn't a shooting foul? Isn't the mechanic (and good game management) for the calling official to indicate to his partner whether we're shooting freethrows, or throwing the ball in?

Maybe I should rephrase the question to, should I have told him I saw it as a shooting foul and let him decide if he wants to change it, or was I proper in saying, "I'm not going to change your call?"

When he called the foul, he did not indicate shooting foul or otherwise.

My thoughts...assuming a single whistle here....

If your P called on the flo and before reporting asks for help, tell him what you saw but it's ultimately still his call to live or die with or without your info.

I'd say if your P called on the flo and then under pressure asks for help and changes the call to shooting, you both better be over there explaining why he is changing the call to both coaches. That ought to be fun and I am sure learning will occur from this situation.

If your partner doesnt come for help and lives with his call....and then you get it from A's coach for not helping, you can say "Coach the call was not in my primary" or "Coach, my P saw it that way so please check in with him, he may have saw it differently".

In a Double whistle sitch you should get together and decide on the floor or shooting with the official in the primary taking the call.

Old guys....anything more here?

PublicBJ-
In pregame it should be discussed what you are going to do on a foul that may appear to be a shooting foul or not. I will say most of the time that happens in the games that I am calling with my partners......But, I will not say that I have never had a memory lapse(senior moment) that I did not communicate well with my partner.
But to answer the original question....I agree you should never overrule your partner....If he/she asks for help, tell them what you saw.
The way I deal with a coach who asked me about my partners call....I am still polishing up this part of my game management skills, But I will never say something that the coach can use to drive a wedge between my partner and I.

AK ref SE

Coach I was concentrating on my PCA and did not get a good look at the play--he did. My question as mentioned earlier is "why didn't you indicate the throw-in spot or indicate it was a shooting foul"..this of course to be done after the game....my guess is he wasn't sure himself.

Rev.Ref63,
I think you did fine. However, for me, I just ask ,"Was it shooting?", if, in my opinion, it was.

When we work with a partner with the "preferred" slow whistle, the contact that we see may have been the "second touch" with the first touch occuring a step before our sighting.
There is a decent discussion below on "over-ruling" a partner. Mileage may vary. ;)
mick

Rev, your partner came to you because he needed help on the play. His question was "What did you see?" By saying "I'm not gonna change your call" doesn't really answer that question in my opinion. I would of simply answered either "I'm have him in the act of shooting" or "I have it on the floor". If your partner doesn't need help and doesn't come to you then it is a different story. Then you want to come to him only if you are 100% that he had it wrong and you feel like it will help the game. Then you might come to him and say "Jim, I am 100% that he was in the act of shooting". From there it is up to him, he can change it or not. I have been taught that when a partner comes to you that you always take his advice. Well, maybe I shouldn't say always, I guess there could be a situation where you wouldn't but every time someone has come to me with info I have taken it and changed my call. Be careful about lining up players withour knowing for sure what your partner has. Because you can make your partner look really bad especially when he has it on the floor. When coaches see you line them up and the players ready to shoot free throws now he has it in his mind that it must of been shooting.

Wow. Do you mean to say you would come in to offer new
information on a *foul* call? OOB, misapplication of rules,
that sort of thing, sure. But shooting vs nonshooting?

I don't know about that.

As has been noted, this should be a topic in pregame (e.g. "When I make a call, I will give a prelim and point to the spot or indicate number of shots...if we're shooting, I will find your shooter for you").

I agree with Dan...there should be no debate on shooting fouls. The only time I will interject myself on my partner is on an incorrect OOB, shot or game clock situation or a rules interpretation. These situations require that I have certain knowledge that he/she does not, and we will pregame those situations as well.

on the floor?
 

What is this "on the floor" stuff?
We all know that the act of shooting can start and even end with the player never leaving the floor. Look at how most players shoot free throws: they don't jump!
My point is that I cringe when I hear an official indicate that it is not a shooting foul by yelling, "ON THE FLOOR!"

I would suggest saying "No Shot." or "Before the shot." That is my mechanic.

Yes, I know that is what we all mean, but the choice of words is terrible.

eroe didn't say he' come in to offer new information, only that he'd provide information when asked, as in the original play.

NO SHOT!
 

Nevadaref,
Good call.
mick

Wha? Here's the part that got my attention:


If your partner doesn't need help and doesn't come to you then it is a different story. Then you want to come to him only if you are 100% that he had it wrong and you feel like it will help the game. Then you might come to him and say "Jim, I am 100% that he was in the act of shooting".


I might not be the brightest guy here but the way I read
this is eroe is advocating helping his partner on a
*shooting foul unasked*. In other words he's going to come
in to offer new information (that's PC-speak for over rule) on a foul call.

BTW, if asked I agree that you should offer something more
than "I'm not gonna change your call".

Hey, Rev, looking forward to working with you tonight. I think you should have said I thought she was shooting and then let him change it if he so chooses. If it was Barney then he needs lots of help, he's sure not bashful about making calls right in front of his partner from all the way across the court. I worked a volleyball match with him this year and after he messed up a call and the coach questioned it between games he told her to give us a break we were new to volleyball. Doh! I said let her figure that out on her own.

You never over rule. I would walk up to him and whisper in his ear, "I thought he was in the act." Then let him make up his mind. The only place I would definitely step in is on an OOB when I knew my partner did not have a good look at who last touched the ball.

Tim,
When we don't know, we raise our "Stop Clock" and look for help. Then our partner will give a direction.
Rarely, unless the the crowd goes, "Oooooooooooh!", do we go down to change a call without being asked/eye-balled by our partners.
mick

I would be very selective about doing this. I beleive you are better off offering what you saw to you partner and letting your partner change his call. The next time a coach doesn't like your partner's call he will want you to overrule it, regardless of the circumstance. You risk your partner's credibility by simply overruling. Plus, your partner may have seen something that you did not see.

Besides, if you did it to me we would discuss it, thoroughly, at the next opportunity and it wouldn't happen, with me as your partner, again.

Nevadaref-

I like your wording "No Shot"... But to me! "Before the shot" gives the coach more leeway to howl because if you are saying before the shot......He/She has fuel to say the player was in the act of shooting. Just my perception!

AK ref SE

Good point on the "on the floor" comment. I have heard some high school and college supervisors say they don't like that terminology. I agree with everybody about not overuling your partner. You always want to come to your partner and give he or she the info you have and then let them make up their mind what they want to do. I heard someone mention "I thought", avoid think and thought, say I know or I am 100% if you are coming to your partner. The only time you want to say "I thought" is maybe if they come to you for help and you all want to get in a discussion about the play. My supervisors will take names and kick a** if someone comes in and tells you something 100% and you don't take take that info to change your own call. A lot of people seem to disagree about coming to your partner on whether a player is in the act. I am not saying this is something that should be done a lot. I have been in games where it has been done about 5 times in my entire officiating career which consists of at least 2000 games. But each time it has been done it has been obvious and the coaches have accepted it and if it had not been done we would of lost credibility as a crew. Obviously, out of bounds calls are where this is done the most.

Thanks for the clarification.

Sounds good on the overruling consensus, but what about a block/charge? If I'm trail and see a player shove with his forearm while lead is blocked from that and only sees the block, how do I let him know there?

Is it just me?
 

The original post stated it was a two man crew.
....is it just me or was anybody here wondering what the other eight players were doing while all eyes were on the ball?

RD

Re: Is it just me?
 

RookieDude,
It may be just you.
This game slows down as your experience grows.
Eventually, you will be confident the other eight players were just fine, while you glance at the play in your partners primary <u>and</u> you'll know:
<li> The time on the clock,
<li> The team with the arrow,
<li> The score of the game,
<li> The substitutes waiting to be admitted.
mick

Peterson...to address your question...

If you have a whistle on that B/C, then you and your partner can "discuss" what you have, although the primary generally dictates the calling official (pregame). If you don't have a whistle, I wouldn't come within 100 ft of the call. Your partner needs to live and die with his/her call. His whistle, hopefully his primary, his call.

RD...good comment. If the shot is opposite of you, I would agree that you shouldn't have a real good look at the play. If it's in a "grey area", then you might have an opinion...but opinions are like...everyone has one.

Re: Re: Is it just me?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick
[B]RookieDude,
It may be just you.
This game slows down as your experience grows.
Eventually, you will be confident the other eight players were just fine, while you glance at the play in your partners primary <u>and</u> you'll know:
<li> The time on the clock,
<li> The team with the arrow,
<li> The score of the game,
<li> The substitutes waiting to be admitted.

Heck...when I really get good maybe I'll know:
<li> The price of eggs and bacon in New York
<li> The favorite watering hole of my Assignor
<li> The birthday of my rich Aunt Thelma
<li> The Coach's sister
but, I still don't want to be a "ball watcher" that would actually consider changing a foul call in another official's primary. JMHO

RD
Edit: maybe I'll even get good enough to use these quote icons without messing it up....

[Edited by RookieDude on Nov 8th, 2002 at 07:04 AM]

Re: Re: Re: Is it just me?
 

RookieDude,
I see, now, by looking at your experience profile, that you were writing rhetorically. I won't make that mistake again. ;)
I certainly agree with your position on ball watching and over-reaching.
mick

True, but it's specifically listed in the CCA Women's 3-person mechanic manual.