When to over-rule?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Wow. Do you mean to say you would come in to offer new
information on a *foul* call? OOB, misapplication of rules,
that sort of thing, sure. But shooting vs nonshooting?

I don't know about that.

eroe didn't say he' come in to offer new information, only that he'd provide information when asked, as in the original play.

[mick]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

I would suggest saying "No Shot." or "Before the shot." That is my mechanic.

Nevadaref,
Good call.
mick

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

eroe didn't say he' come in to offer new information, only that he'd provide information when asked, as in the original play.

Wha? Here's the part that got my attention:


If your partner doesn't need help and doesn't come to you then it is a different story. Then you want to come to him only if you are 100% that he had it wrong and you feel like it will help the game. Then you might come to him and say "Jim, I am 100% that he was in the act of shooting".


I might not be the brightest guy here but the way I read
this is eroe is advocating helping his partner on a
*shooting foul unasked*. In other words he's going to come
in to offer new information (that's PC-speak for over rule) on a foul call.

BTW, if asked I agree that you should offer something more
than "I'm not gonna change your call".

[devdog69]

Originally posted by Rev.Ref63
Maybe I should rephrase the question to, should I have told him I saw it as a shooting foul and let him decide if he wants to change it, or was I proper in saying, "I'm not going to change your call?"

When he called the foul, he did not indicate shooting foul or otherwise.

Hey, Rev, looking forward to working with you tonight. I think you should have said I thought she was shooting and then let him change it if he so chooses. If it was Barney then he needs lots of help, he's sure not bashful about making calls right in front of his partner from all the way across the court. I worked a volleyball match with him this year and after he messed up a call and the coach questioned it between games he told her to give us a break we were new to volleyball. Doh! I said let her figure that out on her own.

[Tim Roden]

You never over rule. I would walk up to him and whisper in his ear, "I thought he was in the act." Then let him make up his mind. The only place I would definitely step in is on an OOB when I knew my partner did not have a good look at who last touched the ball.

[mick]

Originally posted by Tim Roden
The only place I would definitely step in is on an OOB when I knew my partner did not have a good look at who last touched the ball.

Tim,
When we don't know, we raise our "Stop Clock" and look for help. Then our partner will give a direction.
Rarely, unless the the crowd goes, "Oooooooooooh!", do we go down to change a call without being asked/eye-balled by our partners.
mick

[stripes]

Originally posted by Tim Roden
You never over rule. I would walk up to him and whisper in his ear, "I thought he was in the act." Then let him make up his mind. The only place I would definitely step in is on an OOB when I knew my partner did not have a good look at who last touched the ball.

I would be very selective about doing this. I beleive you are better off offering what you saw to you partner and letting your partner change his call. The next time a coach doesn't like your partner's call he will want you to overrule it, regardless of the circumstance. You risk your partner's credibility by simply overruling. Plus, your partner may have seen something that you did not see.

Besides, if you did it to me we would discuss it, thoroughly, at the next opportunity and it wouldn't happen, with me as your partner, again.

[AK ref SE]

Nevadaref-

I like your wording "No Shot"... But to me! "Before the shot" gives the coach more leeway to howl because if you are saying before the shot......He/She has fuel to say the player was in the act of shooting. Just my perception!

AK ref SE

[eroe39]

Good point on the "on the floor" comment. I have heard some high school and college supervisors say they don't like that terminology. I agree with everybody about not overuling your partner. You always want to come to your partner and give he or she the info you have and then let them make up their mind what they want to do. I heard someone mention "I thought", avoid think and thought, say I know or I am 100% if you are coming to your partner. The only time you want to say "I thought" is maybe if they come to you for help and you all want to get in a discussion about the play. My supervisors will take names and kick a** if someone comes in and tells you something 100% and you don't take take that info to change your own call. A lot of people seem to disagree about coming to your partner on whether a player is in the act. I am not saying this is something that should be done a lot. I have been in games where it has been done about 5 times in my entire officiating career which consists of at least 2000 games. But each time it has been done it has been obvious and the coaches have accepted it and if it had not been done we would of lost credibility as a crew. Obviously, out of bounds calls are where this is done the most.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by eroe39


A lot of people seem to disagree about coming to your partner on whether a player is in the act. I am not saying this is something that should be done a lot. I have been in games where it has been done about 5 times in my entire officiating career which consists of at least 2000 games. But each time it has been done it has been obvious and the coaches have accepted it and if it had not been done we would of lost credibility as a crew. Obviously, out of bounds calls are where this is done the most.

Thanks for the clarification.

[mpeterson_1]

Sounds good on the overruling consensus, but what about a block/charge? If I'm trail and see a player shove with his forearm while lead is blocked from that and only sees the block, how do I let him know there?

[RookieDude]

The original post stated it was a two man crew.
....is it just me or was anybody here wondering what the other eight players were doing while all eyes were on the ball?

RD

[mick]

Originally posted by RookieDude
The original post stated it was a two man crew.
....is it just me or was anybody here wondering what the other eight players were doing while all eyes were on the ball?

RD

RookieDude,
It may be just you.
This game slows down as your experience grows.
Eventually, you will be confident the other eight players were just fine, while you glance at the play in your partners primary and you'll know:

The time on the clock,

The team with the arrow,

The score of the game,

The substitutes waiting to be admitted.
mick

[Z REF]

Peterson...to address your question...

If you have a whistle on that B/C, then you and your partner can "discuss" what you have, although the primary generally dictates the calling official (pregame). If you don't have a whistle, I wouldn't come within 100 ft of the call. Your partner needs to live and die with his/her call. His whistle, hopefully his primary, his call.

RD...good comment. If the shot is opposite of you, I would agree that you shouldn't have a real good look at the play. If it's in a "grey area", then you might have an opinion...but opinions are like...everyone has one.

[RookieDude]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick
[B]

Originally posted by RookieDude
The original post stated it was a two man crew.
....is it just me or was anybody here wondering what the other eight players were doing while all eyes were on the ball?

RD

RookieDude,
It may be just you.
This game slows down as your experience grows.
Eventually, you will be confident the other eight players were just fine, while you glance at the play in your partners primary and you'll know:

The time on the clock,

The team with the arrow,

The score of the game,

The substitutes waiting to be admitted.

Heck...when I really get good maybe I'll know:

The price of eggs and bacon in New York

The favorite watering hole of my Assignor

The birthday of my rich Aunt Thelma

The Coach's sister
but, I still don't want to be a "ball watcher" that would actually consider changing a foul call in another official's primary. JMHO

RD
Edit: maybe I'll even get good enough to use these quote icons without messing it up....

[Edited by RookieDude on Nov 8th, 2002 at 07:04 AM]