I have worked in conferences that have raised the rates they pay almost every year since 07 and a year or two before that and we have had 3 Person for years.

There is only one conference that I worked where the fees dropped. And it was mostly because some teams merged with each other to form a larger conference and some schools were from the Chicago area and the other schools were outside the Chicago area and there was a difference in what the merging schools were paying in their respective conferences. And the assignor that assigned the schools that were not in the Chicago area and now were joining the conference has told everyone that "I will lose officials because of pay."

Peace

yep

The thing is, if the schools had given raises to the officials when times weren't so lean, it may have bought them some good will for these lean times.

I'm with Rich, "for the kids" is typically just a canard meant to shut down the debate through guilt.

Public schoolteacher salaries are typically public record. If I were the officials, I would've had these numbers at hand whenever anyone suggested officials should work for the same amount of money or get one raise in 21 years.

Let me ask you this, how do you propose your brethren in Louisiana go about getting higher wages? It's obvious you don't agree with how those in the four chapters went about it. What makes you think that your state association will give you a raise given their history? I could understand not giving a raise with how the economy currently is, but your state association has shown to be content even during times of good economic health.

There's no way I should be able to make more for one JV game than a three man varsity game. Someone there has dropped the ball big time.

No way? Well that is pretty much the case here. The varsity games which are much more likely to be revenue generators make more money than a single lower level game in most cases. Of course many lower level games are not stand alone games and you can work 2 games and make more in a night, but there should be an incentive to work the higher level ball and for guys to get better. One way to do that is in pay.

Peace

Before the changes in VT, the $100 varsity fee was split 3 ways. [I think most schools went with $34 apiece]. As a JV/Frosh official, I received $30. There were grumblings, but the VT Principals Assn went to bat for the officials and the 3 for the price of 2 went away. Sounds like the bat is being used differently down there.

I don't get what you're saying. :confused: Are you saying one should be able to earn more working one JV game than working one varsity game? In case there was confusion, I'm saying that one should earn more working a varsity game than a JV game. In the case of Louisiana, I could earn more working one JV game locally than a varsity game in Louisiana.

Are your officials/associations already contracted for the Play Offs? Because, sitting those out would DEF. be a big bargaining chip!

I am sorry, I misread what you said orginally and I did not pay attention to the pay scale.

So we agree. Read too fast. ;)

Peace

You must be a coach......

Or a spam bot...

amen brutha!!!!

I've suggested that officials pay raises in Oregon (statewide payscale) should be tied to teacher pay raises....same percent for both. The question arises about what the teacher pay is since each district has a different scale but it shouldn't be hard to come up with an average percentage raise for all teachers in the state. It will probably never happen as they want to be able to cut/freeze our pay at will even when they get a raise just so they can save a few bucks....as long as they get theirs.

We Got A 2% Raise This Year ...
 

Which is exactly how we do it here in the Constitution State. No more negotiations, or contracts signed, in smoke filled rooms.

I can earn as much working a JH game here with 6-minute quarters as guys earn in varsity games in LA.

We're In The Money ...
 

Catholic school eighth grade "varsity" game, single game, with seven minute periods: $54.00
High school subvarsity games (includes middle school): $57.25
High school varsity games: $88.28

I don't have the answer. I have no part in the negotiation process. I play the hand I am dealt. If it reaches the point where it is costing me money to call games, and I no longer enjoy doing it, I will check out the private school association or give it up altogether.

As far as how the four chapters handled it, no I certainly don't agree with it. In the first place it was doomed to fail, if they thought they would get a pay raise signed now, because of the limited support given the walkout, even among the officials. Mainly, this is unacceptable because it fails to live up to an agreement which was signed by both sides. A local principal told me there is actually a signed contract between school and association. He couldn't tell me exactly what it says, because he never actually reads it, just signs it. The piece of paper is not the important part to me. I am a part of a group which has promised to do a job, so I intend to do my part. Expanding our normal area to cover games deserted by others is not quite as easy to justify, but I see the principle as the same, mainly because the schools affected by the limited area have no power to make changes on their own, even if they are inclined to do so.

No one commented on my truck driving analogy.


I don't see the difference in this and our situation. If there is one, perhaps someone could explain. If a trucker dumps a load for one of you, let me know, I'll come get it if necessary, even if that would be considered stabbing the trucker in the back who dumped it there.

I'm sure that you'll never, ever see the difference either, JAR. 100% sure.

And the back stabbing analogy is right on too imo.

So you'd kiss up to the trucker who dumped your stuff and allow only him to go back and pick it up? Seriously?

You don't get it. Your analogy is a horrible one for many obvious reasons.

And one more thing, the school who offered to switch to our association if we covered them during the walkout, (this was called stealing, poaching, and a miserable practice, I believe) was with us before switching to their current association last season. That's right. They stole/poached them from us. Even though the crossover turned out not to happen, I'm now told the switch will now take place anyway. I'm also told that the coaches wanted to switch back this season.

Let's hear them.

Is that the association that's covering the games that are 150 miles from you? The ones that you were going to drive 300 miles round trip to do the other day?

The principals and coaches will always switch back and forth to different associations in order to save a few bucks and maybe get a few breaks (in their minds) in the officiating. And why shouldn't they if they have competing associations willing and eager to stab their fellow officials in the back to gain a few games? Hell, who cares if the games only pay $36; you're getting more of them.

You just don't get it it. The LHSSAA is playing you off against each other and laughing their heads off at you while they're doing so. And until you do get it, you'll be working games for peanuts and kissing azz to do 'em.

no


You're rattling without knowing what you're talking about now. (imagine that)
They're going to save a few bucks? The game fees are the same. The mileage is the same. The money is the same.

1) Got it. You were gonna drive 300 miles the other day to stab a completely different association in the back. How noble of you....and your association.

2) Gee, I know from your past posts that you won't hesitate to throw guys from your own association under the bus. I guess I was rattling on about you probably having no problems doing the same to another association. That clear it up? :)

Like I said, JAR, you just don't get it it.

Yeah, that's clear. When called on something you know nothing about, you bluster about something else, which may or may not have any merit.

1. If a pay raise is accepted, the guys who didn't sit out can thank the ones who did.

2. If a pay raise is not accepted, the guys who sat out can thank the ones who didn't.

Here in Oklahoma, we don't have a statewide pay rate. Rates are determined by conference. Smaller schools in rural areas sometimes pay more (if they are not tied to a conference and schedule their own officials). For 5A-6A level schools (6A is our highest classification) in my area, $45 for Varsity games (same crew for B&G). $25 for all sub varsity, including middle school. No travel reimbursement. 3 man crews for all 5A-6A varsity games, 2 man for all sub varsity and B-4A varsity games. You work 4 middle school games, 6 minute quarters (7/8 G/B) for $100. 2 JV games (7 min. quarters) for $50, or 2 Varsity games for $90. We rank pretty low on the totem pole, but $31 for Varsity games?? That's pretty weak.

We get travel. Some nights, you make less than I do.

Snaqs, I value your opinion, and appreciate your way of presenting it, but I have to disagree. Statements were made that the threat of a walkout changed some votes to the negative. Hard to believe the real thing generated a lot of good will for the cause.

I will say that I have not gone more than 25 miles to officiate all season, so the travel is kind of a moot point for me.

I am unfortunate in that I live at one end of our territory, so I have to travel more than anyone we have, probably. But we have a minimum of $30 travel for the crew, so the least we can get for a varsity doubleheader is $87 each 2 man, which is about all we do.

One And A Half Trips ...
 

Fifty miles one way back home. Was only twenty five miles from work (Don't tell the IRS). No mileage, but the $88.28 check (one game) seems fair.

Billy, do you guys ever work more than one game? And, if so, does the fee double, or is the rate cut for the second game?

You've already told them at least twice, this week alone.

Most nights, my travel takes the opposite pattern. As many as 70 miles to the game, then 15 miles home.

Double Down ???
 

For high school varsity games, never. Schools will seldom schedule the boys/girls varsity doubleheaders that I see other Forum members posting about. Also, when these rare doubleheaders are scheduled, or when high school Holiday Tournament varsity doubleheaders are scheduled, different crews get the assignments.

The most common type of doubleheaders assigned are 4:00 p.m. freshman games followed by 5:30 p.m. junior varsity games. One, or both, of the freshman officials may stay at the site for the junior varsity assignment. This is because we do not have a lot of available officials for midafternoon games. Most of them have day jobs, and can't make the 4:00 p.m. start. When our officials do work said doubleheader, they get two full game fees. (Two subvarsity fees, $57.25 + $57.25 = $114.50)

When I work for my Catholic middle school assigner, he will cut the rate for a boys/girls varsity (eighth grade) doubleheader, which are almost always assigned as a doubleheader. For example, I have one of these varsity (seven minute periods) doubleheaders tonight. I will walk out with a check for $84.00. One of our Catholic schools does not field a girls varsity team. We will work a single boys varsity game when that school is involved in an assignment, and will walk out of those games with a check for $54.00.

Now, Where Are My Reading Glasses ???
 

So I better post that I always forget my bag at home, and always have to stop at home to get my bag.

Tell it to the judge.

"And the district attorneys, who prosecute the offenders." ...
 

Do you think they would use those traffic cameras along the highway as evidence, like they always do on Law and Order?

All HS games are DH here. Actually 4 games, JV B/G with one crew, V G/B with another crew. One conference plays at 3:30, 4:45, 6:00 and 7:30, while the other conference plays at 4:00, 5:15, 6:30 and 8. Freshman teams usually play the same team on the road when V/JV are at home on the same day. Middle schools play 4 games starting at 4:30 and Middle school JV plays on Saturdays 2-3 games per Saturday (5 games for the officials at 8 Saturday Morning).

In our league we schedule doubleheaders.One crew does JV boys and girls while the other varsity boys and girls.Our tip off times are 3,4:30,6,and 7:30.Middle school basketball here is a spring sport so the teams get to use the gym for practice too!

Had makeup games tonight because schools were closed for icy road yesterday.
This school had also had home games on Tuesday. The principal made a point of telling me how much he appreciated us sticking it out during the stoppage. He went on to say he had voted against the pay raise at the last meeting, but he now intended to vote for it when it comes up again in the summer.

I bet you really got that warm and fuzzy feeling when the principal told you how much he appreciated you screwing your fellow officials. It's just great that you're keeping all of those principals in your area so damn happy.

You really do have one helluva lot of conversations with principals, ADs and coaches, don't you, JAR? :rolleyes:

Gee, you don't think that there might be a chance that that principal might now be voting for a pay raise because of the stoppage? Because some LA officials had the balls to say "enough is enough"? Naw, that couldn't be it, could it. It's probably because he personally likes you so damn much.

Did you also tell that principal that your association plans to decline any future pay raises that are gained in such a despicable manner? Just wondering. You guys do have the conviction of your principles, don't you?

Principal and I were on the same page that when an agreement is in place to work for a certain price for a certain period that it should be honored. Apparently you don't understand/want to understand that idea.

We're all just people. Communication is the key to a lot of things. One of the common criticisms of officials is that they are aloof and unreachable. You, on the other hand, are aloof and unreachable even to other officials here when we dare to disagree with you. :rolleyes:

Now you're calling a man a liar that you never met and have no idea who he is. Very nice.


The balls to say enough is enough, the balls to ignore an agreement which was signed with the other side........... po-tay-toe......po-tah-toe


We have done nothing despicable. I, personally, do not believe the despicable actions of others to which you refer will gain us anything. I hope that the opposite is not the case.

Won't You Be My Neighbor
 

JR's knowledge of the rules is unquestioned. The strength of his convictions is admirable. His delivery could use some work.

Ever consider changing your screen name to just another principal?

Is there a point that I am missing here?

Reading this, it seems to me that the walk out helped change the principal's mind. At the very least it could of brought to light how unhappy some officials are about the embarrassingly low pay they receive.

But seeing as how it was only 4 of the local chapters, and given your state association's track record, I'd bet a pay raise isn't coming soon.

This was the point. Snaq's (and others) thought that the walkout would cause principals to vote for the pay raise. This guy said that the opposite was the case. Was he lying in my face for some other reason?

good example

I wouldn't bet the farm on it either way. The question I have is, whether the raise is approved or not, when it comes time to sign the contracts, what if some associations agree to sign and others don't?

Naw, he was just petting you, rubbing your ears, patting your tummy and saying "good doggie". And by golly, it worked, didn't it?.

I am sorry but that is funny.

BTW, I have never had an extensive conversation with a Principle about anything officiating other than when I ejected a coach years ago. And that was only done because the form we file goes to the Principal of the school on every ejection (Special Report). Even former coaches that have turned into Principals I have never talked to them about anything other than where they were going to be if we needed them to get rid of some fans. I would never talk to them about pay in an extensive way. But obviously in LA they do things differently in more than choice of belt. ;)

Peace

At $36 a game and a pay raise every 21 years, I'm surprised that they can even afford belts.

I wonder how many pay raises that JAR's ol' buddy, the principal, has had in the last 21 years. :)

They cannot afford the more expensive pants and get them hemmed that is for sure. ;)

Peace

Right. So you would have just snatched the check from his hand, said "Thanks for nothing, you tightwad so and so," and walked out. Nobody is gonna rub your ears and pat your tummy.

Yep, another good idea. Never talk extensively about pay to one of the guys who votes on whether you get your raise or not. That couldn't accomplish anything. Just stay home and refuse to work, even though you have an agreement in place to do so. That makes sense. Better yet, those guys should have walked out at halftime of the games on Tuesday. They'd probably have given us an immediate raise then.

Now I see why my friend that moved to LA stopped officiating.
 

I did not say you couldn't talk to them, I said I do not see the reason why to talk to them. I am a President of an organization and I do not talk to any Principal about pay of officials. Then again I do not work in a system where the state can "price fix" what everyone does throughout a large state. And I would not know when or how I would get into that kind of conversation. I am not going to call them. I guess I would talk to them before a game, but not likely. That is usually what the AD is for. But then again this is why your state is the laughing stock in this area (as well as some mechanical things you have done over the years too). Then again, talk away and still get paid less than the person you are talking to for the time he/she is at the game. The fact you keep standing up for this crap is telling to me.

Peace

Maybe we should hire you as our representative, with your great communication skills. :rolleyes:

You can be critical of my typing skills all day long. The bottom line I get paid enough for most games to pay for both a shirt and some pants almost every game. You do not get paid enough to pay for half of a full tank of gas in my truck. I have never been paid in my career as low as you have (other than one school that was close to my house at the time) than you have been paid all of this year.

My communication skills have nothing to do with that at all and maybe why you have not been given a raise in 21 years and I have never had to go out and ask for one. Then again no one in your area gets upset over how they look based on your post. I think I must be communicating something to the right people. This is a discussion board, what we say here means nothing in the end. You still are getting the shaft no matter how you want to say it.

Peace

You guys need to hire someone. On our board we took a PAY CUT to $62.50 a game in order to get a 3rd official on the court for GV. We did this on our own volition. Before that we were getting $75.00 a game for public school varsity (3-man for boys; 2-man for girls). And we did this after losing our other public school conference to our ex-patriat commissioner; so we know all about losing business to competitors.

And we get $30/game for our rec leagues.

So nobody is really impressed about your 'success' in getting games in LA.

By "our representative", does the "our" mean the LA officials or the principals? From all of your previous posts, it seems fairly reasonable to assume that you're on the principals' side of this dispute.

That might not be a bad idea to hire Jeff anyway, JAR. Seriously. He understands the problem, knows that he's supposed to represent the interests of officials instead of the principals, and he also understands that you don't say anything to the side that you're negotiating with that might come back and haunt your side later.

Iow Jeff gets it. You don't.

I work for two associations in FL. FHSAA sets a minimum for officials' pay. I am paid differently by the two associations. Within my primary association, there is a difference on JV games. One county pays $5 less but has 7 minute qtrs. My secondary assn had one school district eliminate MS teams and it resulted in fewer games available. That assn wanted to be able to provide enough games for everyone and had the fee for varsity split 3 ways for 2 officials. However, that assignor has more off-season opportunities, so I view it differently. I live at the extreme southern edge of my assn and schools in the secondary assn are closer than many in my primary. So, I plan that into my thinking.

In place of giving me more than one small pay raise in the last 21 years? I'd have to say that you're completely correct in saying that I wouldn't be purring like you, JAR. :)

What did I say that could possibly come back to haunt my side?

Since when do people get criticized for keeping their word? This makes no sense to me.
JAR is keeping his word and the part of his bargain with his association and the LHSAA. The fact that the LHSAA is not doing the same is not really his problem at the moment. Two wrongs don't make a right. Everythng else is just an example of people trying to justify their behavior. You don't need to justify doing what you said you would do.
I respect JAR sticking to his guns during this difficult time and wish more people would honor their words like him, the world would be a much better place

It's fine if he wants to keep his association's bargain -- that's a personal choice. What's slimy is that their association doesn't even hesitate in keeping OTHER association's bargains even though they have no reason to do so.

I will agree with you that is a point that can be debated. And to be honest I am about 50-50 on it. Do you fill in when others fail to do what they are contracted to do? Or do you just let both parties sink or swim? I can see both sides of that argument. 1) We will fill in for the "good of the game" or 2) I am only doing what I am contractually obligated to do and no more. IMO, either way is fine b/c the rubber doesn't hit the road until the new contract and/or the next season.

I see one reason as damage control. Unless something changes, when the "tweaked" proposal comes to a vote again, it will not separate who honored the previous agreement and who didn't. The longer the delay, the more trouble it would have been for the other side, the more potential bad blood, the more chance they would vote against the raise next time.

So now it has dissolved into "I have more stuff than you have." Very nice. Kinda like arguing with a 6 year old, except the 6 year old could type his messages better.:rolleyes:

Man, they really have you scared, don't they? If all the LA officials were like you, it would be another 21 years before they'd even ask for a raise.

I sincerely hope that your association...and yourself.....aren't two-faced enough to accept a raise if one is given by the LHSSAA. Stick to your principles and refuse those ill-gotten gains made by others that you're so dead against. After all, it's not like you've risked one damn thing to make things better for officials in LA, is it?

What did I have to risk?

"Ill gotten gains"? Seriously? Since when is a negotiated contract ill gotten?

Which is being two face:
a) Agreeing to a contract and then before the contract expires, saying that the contract is insufficient and fail to live up to your end of the bargain
or
b) Fulfilling your contract and negtiating for a better one when the current one expires?

If enough officials decide not to work for those new wages, does that make those who do evil? If someone is willing to work for the wages being offered why demonize them?

The best thing that could happen long-term would be that the raise gets voted down and everyone walks next season. Then when you go work anyway, I'm sure you'd have a "good" reason. Otherwise I'd expect that everyone will get $2 or some ridiculous amount and the principals will act like they're being generous.

Lot of difference between "everyone" walking and what we had here. What if one crew in our association had decided not to work on Tuesday, should the rest of us have refused to take their game?

It's one thing to fill in for a neighboring association when they simply get overwhelmed with games. But that's not what happened here. This is one group essentially telling the schools not to worry about this little dispute because they'll step up and fill in the gap.
Again, if they actually get a raise, it'll be in spite of the sh1tty behavior of jar's association. If they don't get a raise, it'll be largely because of the guys who didn't think it was important enough to take a small risk.

I just don't see the risk, personally. In that position, I'd not work, I'm sure of it. What is there to lose, $31 a game? And for those who say, "think of the children," that just presupposes that those of us that officiate do it for the children. Big assumption to make.

I enjoy officiating, but I'd never cross this line. I'd pack the stuff up for the year and enjoy a few more nights at home with the family.

What was the vote in your association? If mre than 50% decided to walk, then all should walk. Did your group even take a vote?

no

I can see that argument. But, and this is a point made by both JAR and RICH, how many people ACTUALLY left. I am assuming there are more than 7 assocations in LA ( I could be wrong) and only 4 walked. so since less than 1/2 of the associations walked, the 'majority' didn't support that action.
If the schools come up with a low offer and the majority of the associations decide NOT to sign on, and someone crosses, then I have an issue. Again, I think the Associations hold most of the cards here, but for the next contract, not this one.

Really? Interesting.

4 out of 14

Thank you for clearing that up for me. Obviously, you and your associations are going to have some soul searching to do this offseason. If your associations vote to walk/hold out, I don't think ANYONE would blame you. If your associations get a huge raise, that is b/c of everyones efforts.

This is, IMO, the only potentially valid argument. jar notes his association didn't even vote on it; that tells me the leadership made a decision not to even let it come up. I wonder what percent of the associations that actually voted on it decided to walk.

The thing is, each association gets to make their own choice. And in my opinion, that choice should be honored by the neighboring associations.

I'm not sure how it works in LA, but here each association sets the price with the local school districts. There's a state minimum, but the local groups can pay more if they wish. If my local association decided to take a stand on something like this, and the group 90 minutes away offered to step in and help the schools out, I'd have a big problem with that.

I disagree, I think. It'll be because of the efforts of 4 associations out of 14. The other 10 will be benefiting from the 4 who actually stood up for themselves.

And in the case of those who crossed the "picket line," they will have benefited in spite of their weak-kneed response.

Yeah, this is probably where we differ. 4 out of 14 does not a threat make, IMO. It equals a temper tantrum. 10 out of 14 is a threat. (Or 8)

How do we know where the other associations stand? JAR's didn't even put it to a vote of the membership.

And that just confirms what I think of you and your ethics. And the fact that your biggest booster is somebody like Judtech is pretty telling also.

JAR, I sureashell wouldn't dream of ever turning my back on either of you.

+1

For all we know, if the other associations followed JAR's and didn't even take a vote, that 4/14 might have been a lot more than that. I'm not sure why an association would decide not to take a vote on such an important issue.

We don't know what an actual head count would show, but we do know where the associations stood. Apparently the majority of the spokesmen either went along with the majority viewpoint since it was the majority, thought a stoppage at this time would not be productive, or simply thought, as I do, that refusing to work after having an agreement to do so, was not an option.

Wonder how large the 4 associations are with respect to the whole? Do they represent a third of the total? Two-thirds? I have to guess that they were not 4 tiny associations with minimal impact.

A quick look at maxpreps.com indicates there are about 400 schools in LA. Some 80 games were called off. So, 160 schools were affected. Others covered by those associations may not have been scheduled. And some games may have been covered by officials outside of the associations that normally work those games. I'm gonna venture a guess that these 4 assns represent more than 28.6% of the officials and schools covered.

Good question. I could guess the answer -- probably has to do with $.

The fact that I was not asked my opinion is a reflection of my ethics??

wow

This has nothing to do with having more stuff. I cannot believe you and others would tolerate such a low rate. The issue is that it cost money to officiate and the fact that you are getting paid so low is the issue. This has nothing to do with having more than you; it is about what you put up with. I know I would not put up with that and you undermined a group that wanted to make it better for all of you. And instead of giving support, you cave to the pressure. And the fact that you assume that this is a childish comment is why you are in the situation you are in that state. When you accept peanuts you get peanuts.

Peace

If you lived where I live you would put up with it or quit. I do not wish to quit.

I don't live where you do and I also work more than HS ball. Doubt seriously I would have to quit. ;)

Peace

The associations are comprised of members. If you don't know what the headcount would show, you have no idea what your association thinks.

Who makes the decision anyway -- an assignor who has a financial stake in assigning? A board of directors? This is a decision that should be made by the membership. One official, one vote. Nothing less.