FT Violation?

[Troward]

just reading NFHS case book rule 6.7.4 and I'm unclear?

It says A1 is at the free throw line for his second of 2 shots, A1 with the ball, before A1 starts to shoot B1 violates and the official inadvertantly blows his whistle. All It says is the ball is dead. So now that the officials realize their error Does A1 still get 2 to tries to make his one shot? even though he never attempted a shot on the violation, A1 stopped b/c of the whistle.

thanks again
GTW

[Mark Dexter]

B1 violated.

As long as no member of team A violates (which they can't really do after the whistle), A1 will get to repeat the shot.

[bard]

The case you are referring to is 6.7.5. Note that the ball is dead when the whistle is blown unless the ball is already in the air. If the player has not yet released the ball, there is no try. If the player shoots the ball anyway and makes the shot, it does not count.

If the ball is already airborn when the whisle blows, and the shot is made, the basket counts, and there is no additional try. If the shot is not made, or if the whistle blew before the shot was attempted, readminister and let the player try again.

Please note in the case that the ball is "dead immediately" only is scenarios "(a) and (c)."

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Troward
just reading NFHS case book rule 6.7.4 and I'm unclear?

It says A1 is at the free throw line for his second of 2 shots, A1 with the ball, before A1 starts to shoot B1 violates and the official inadvertantly blows his whistle. All It says is the ball is dead. So now that the officials realize their error Does A1 still get 2 to tries to make his one shot? even though he never attempted a shot on the violation, A1 stopped b/c of the whistle.

thanks again
GTW

Yes. A1 still gets two tries. A1 gets the FT which was due as a result of the foul and A1 gets the FT that will result from the delay violation.

Another possible variant. A1 at the line. B1 violates. A calls timeout. Same result as above. When the timeout is over, the FT is started with a delay violation indicated by the official.

The delayed violation persists until A1 shoots or A1 violates. With the new rule on violations, only a violatoin by the shooter matters once B1 has violated.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Yes. A1 still gets two tries.

Why does he get two tries, when this is the second of two shots?

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Why does he get two tries, when this is the second of two shots?

He gets two attempts to make one because of the violation. When the official blows the whistle, it does not cancel B's violation. When the ball is handed to A, the official will immediately indicate a deleyed violation. If missed, A gets one more.

[Nevadaref]

It also seems to me that if there is no violation and the official screws-up and blows the whistle during a free throw that has started (ie ball has been placed at the disposal of the thrower), but has not yet been released this ends the free throw. In this case, if we go strictly by the rules, the kid loses the opportunity to shoot the free throw and the ball is put in play with the AP arrow. Now I also believe that this would cause a near riot in the gym and that any good official would use common sense here and give a replacement free throw. So my point is use common sense when encountered with a wierd situation on the court. The two shots to make one situation that you advocated definitely qualifies as wierd and should make the officials think hard before doing something like that.

[Mike Burns]

No. C Rust is correct. Once the official blew the inadvertant whistle the ball became dead, but it did not cancel the violation by B1. The "time out" sitch that he described is a good example of how the violation can and does carry over (9.1.4 Situation C). Then when the ball is placed at the disposal of A1 the official will immediately indicate a delayed violation. If he misses he gets another.
I think you are reading into 4-20-3. With the inadvertant whistle the ball became dead, but it does not cancel the throw. The player still gets the attempt (unless he or a teammate violates), and the delayed violation for the throw is in effect until the attempt is taken.

[Nevadaref]

Part of being a good official is to admit when you are wrong. After reading the casebook play cited by Mr. Burns, I must do just that!
It says in black and white that you come back from the time-out and have a held whistle violation still in effect and if the shot is missed the player will shoot again.
I must also admit that this play is analogous to the inadvertant whistle and that if you keep the violation in effect after the whistle and time-out then you certain should do the same if you have a whistle and then no time-out.
Thanks to Mr. Burns and Mr. Rust for making me a better referee.
I must say though that I don't see how the rules committee came to that casebook interpretation of the rule as it is written. If one looks only at the rule book and not the case book, that free throw started and then ended. It would be nice if they would fix/make an exception to the rule.
SO do just the opposite of what I wrote earlier!

[Camron Rust]

The way I remember it is that on a whistle by an official that is not due to a new foul or violation, play will be resumed where it was left off. Any penalties/throwins due remain due. The blowing of the whistle doesn't change or erase anything.

This is what drives the rulings on correcting the throwin team before the ball it touched inbounds, blowing the whistle on a fumbled FT before anyone have violated, blowing the whistle at any time to attend to a scorebook issue.

The only time you go to the arrow is when the whistle is blown in abscence of an infraction after the ball is touched inbounds (after a throwin/jumpball) and there is no team control (touched but not controlled, try released but rebound not controlled, etc).

[AK ref SE]

Wow-
I thought I new every thing! Before this post, I would have only given one free throw.
Thanks again Board!

AK ref SE

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

He gets two attempts to make one because of the violation. When the official blows the whistle, it does not cancel B's violation. When the ball is handed to A, the official will immediately indicate a deleyed violation. If missed, A gets one more.

Camron, perhaps this is just a vocabulary thing, perhaps not, I'm so confused, I'm not sure what I'm confused about. Are you saying that A1 already had her first shot, and then on the second shot B1 violated before the ball was released, and the ref blew the whistle before the ball was released, and now, A1 gets a new shot, but if it's missed, she gets yet another try? So the first "replacement" shot has a built-in violation, giving another try if missed? In a sense, we're giving three to make one? My tone may sound a little argumentative, but it's not, I'm just trying to clarify.

[Mike Burns]

Are you saying that A1 already had her first shot, and then on the second shot B1 violated before the ball was released, and the ref blew the whistle before the ball was released[/B]

Yes, that would be a good example of an inadvertant whistle after B violates.

A1 gets a new shot, but if it's missed, she gets yet another try? So the first "replacement" shot has a built-in violation, giving another try if missed? In a sense, we're giving three to make one? [/B]

Not really 3 to make 1. It is still 2 to make 1 due to the delayed violation on B1.
The free throw attempt was interupted by the inadvertant whistle (so there was no attempt). After the inadvertant whistle we will retrieve the ball and again place it at the disposal of the thrower. Immediately indicate the delayed violation (this occured before the inadvertant whistle durring the second attempt). If the attempt is successful then play on. If it is unsuccessful, she gets another attempt.

That may not have helped your confusion, except maybe to add to it...

[Camron Rust]

Replying since Juulie addressed me in the question...

I agree with Mike's reply.

[Mike Burns]

Sorry C
Not meaning to step on toes. I guess I just got home before you did.