This happend in the Celtics game on Wed and I wondering how we would handle it in NFHS.

There was a violation (shot clock in this case) and the official blew his whistle and just after the whistle the horn sounded that the quarter had ended. The whistle and horn were close enough that I thought they could have just called it the end of the quarter but instead they put .6 seconds back on the clock and ran an inbounds play which resulted in a way off half court shot which they blew dead b/c there was not enough time to attempt a legal shot. The effort seemed like a waste, but I wouldn't want to seem lazy.

So the question is: if the horn sounds after the whistle is it logical to always assume there has to be some time left b/c the whistle should have stopped the clock?

No. Check the time-lag rule on timers.

I am answering this without benefit of a review of the rule book so don't burn me too bad if I'm wrong but here's how we should handle this:

If an official has definite knowledge of the time, we are to ask that the clock be reset to that time. However, there is a one second lag time exception that allows for the reaction time of the timer. If the difference in the time between you blowing the whistle and the clock is greater than 1 second, then we have the clock set to where you know it should be. If it is less than one second, we don't change anything.

For instance, if you blow your whistle at 00:00.9 and the horn sounds, the quarter is over. You don't change anything.

If, however, when you blow your whistle, the time is 00:01.1 and the horn sounds, you would ask that the timer set the clock back to 1.1. Note that we don't subtract the 1 second lag time and ask the timer to set it at .1. We only use that one second lag time to determine if we need a clock reset but once we determine it is needed, it is set to the proper time that we have definite knowledge of.

I know this is convoluted but I hope you can understand it.

First of all there is no shot clock in the NFHS. Some states use a shot clock and they would go by NCAA rules on how to handle it. Second, if I have definite knowledge of a time lag, then I will put that time back on the clock.

Tim,

There are about 3 States that use the Shot Clock as an experimental rule. I do not know all of them or if there are more, but he might be in one of those states.

Peace

Of course, Tim's right on the no shot clock under Fed rules.I didn't pick up on the shot clock. It was a rough morning. I thought we were talking game clock.

In the NCAA, and in Fed states that use the shot clock, you would not put time back on the clock. In fact the very same scenario is outlined in AR 33 on page 47 of the NCAA rulebook. In this situation, "shall the official put [time] back on the game clock? RULING: No. The shot-clock horn sounded at the expiration of the shot-clock period; however, this does not stop play unless recognized by the official's whistle. The official's whistle for the shot-clock violation stopped play. The expiration of playing time was indicated by the timer's signal. This signal shall terminate player activity (Rule 2-12-12). The period ended with the violation."

In the Celtics' game, however, the officials followed the NBA's procedure.

Chuck

I know we recently had a thread on this, but I can't find
it. Maybe it was on that other board...or just a dream...or email...anyway, do you remember it?

I don't think any of them are using it as an approved experiment. Instead, they have independantly chosen to alter the rules for use in their state.

They probably lobbied the NFHS to add it and were unsucessful and chose to thumb their noses at the NFHS and used one anyway.

That's kind of harsh, but I think it's essentially true.

We emailed b/c it's a question on this year's test. And by the way, I am not real confident about some of my answers. :(

Chuck

Camron,

The NF has many states doing experimental rules and the states using the Shot Clock is one of them. Illinois for example used an experimental mechanic one year and was used the next. We also are using an experimental rule last year and this year, it might be used in the future. None of those things Illinois are using are going against the NF. The NF suggested it.

Peace

Wha!?!

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/Gif/WBWileE.gif

WOW,
 

Cameron:

Just a "baseball guy" dropping in from the "other" section and following a few threads -- sorry for the intrusion.

I wish you would re-think the following statement:

"I don't think any of them are using it as an approved experiment. Instead, they have independantly chosen to alter the rules for use in their state.

They probably lobbied the NFHS to add it and were unsucessful and chose to thumb their noses at the NFHS and used one anyway."

FEDlandia has always tried to work with states on many different types of adjustment to the rules.

As an example The State of Washington has used a shot clock and no centerline in girls (women's) basketball for over 25 YEARS with the blessing of the NFHS.

As an example The State of Texas uses a version of NCAA rules for high school football with the full backing of the NFHS.

Massachuetts and Rhode Island play "The Official Rules of Baseball" rather than FEDlandia rules and still participate in many other FED actitities.

It is very easy to criticize from a distance however there are usually reasons and a process involved when states select to use only a portion of Fed rules in any sport.

I'll get the heck outta here now and back to baseball.

Re: WOW,
 

I'm certainly aware of this. Just because they've done it for 25 years doesn't mean it is with the blessings of the NFHS.

I've heard it from a very reliable source that some of the above states (not necessarily all) were not doing it with the "blessing" of the NFHS. Rather, they were not conforming to the NFHS rule and the NFHS wasn't taking much action about it. The only consequence that I heard was that the NFHS would not allow representives from states that do not use the official NFHS rules to be elected to the board/rules committee for that sport/activity.

They may allow them to use alternate rules...what could they really do about it any way...but they are no longer an NFHS state when they do so (for that sport).

I agree that there are often expermiments that the NFHS approves and encourages. The shot clock may actually be one of the current ones. However, several states have been using the shot clock for many, many years. It has not been as an experiment but because they disagree with NFHS over the benefit or the need for one.

Cameron,
 

Obviously you're not interested in a view but your own.

Having worked basketball for many years and having worked baseball for over three decades I recognize FEDlandia involvement from a little different view than you.

"The only consequence that I heard was that the NFHS would not allow representives from states that do not use the official NFHS rules to be elected to the board/rules committee for that sport/activity."

In correct. Tim Stevens is a full member of the rules committee in certain sports at the National Fed level and is a working official and state rules interpreter for the State of Washington.

I think you need to research a little more.

And Cameron, I just live in Beaverton so we could discuss this further over a cold adult beverage.

Re: Cameron,
 

I believe this is the first time I've been accused of anything like that. Perhaps its true, but I'm not so much stating my view as repeating what I've been told and read.

While I often do engage in discussions on debatable topics, I believe I have always kept it to discussing the points and not turning it into an issue about the other participants.

Perhaps you should take a look at the NFHS website which I quote below (emphasis mine):

http://www.nfhs.org/rules-writing.htm

I have don't doubt that Tim, and most if not all, Washington officals are fine people and officials. In particular, I don't dispute the accomplishments and contributions of Tim Stevens (who I admittedly do not know). He may very well be on some committees in sports where Washington adopts the NFHS rules.

It is also possible that the NFHS does not actually follow their stated policies.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Nov 1st, 2002 at 05:51 PM]

See you have finally found it . . .
 

FEDlandia DOES NOT always follow their own rules. They even change playing rules during the season at times.

Just a touch about Tim Stevens:

Garth Benham has a fine article on THIS WEBSITE about Tim and his postion with Washington and FED you had outta give it a read.

Tim is quite a scholar, a good football offical and a long time FED/NCAA umpire. He has represented District Eight (PNW) on the FED baseball rules committee for the past two years.

Tim is also the event coordinator for the WIAA (Washington equivilant to the OSAA) and stages their state championship competitions.

I just called Tom Welter (Head of the OSAA) and asked him about "conformance" to FED rules. At this time Oregon is using a different timing structure in debate than the National Federation and therefore they are not following the rules. They are suffering no penalties.

As Tom put it, "Tee, this would be the same as if we selected to allow six personal fouls before disqualifing a player in a basketball game."

[Edited by Tim C on Nov 1st, 2002 at 06:09 PM]

Re: See you have finally found it . . .
 

Still nothing you've said is at odds with what I've claimed. While Tim Stevens may be on the rules committee for baseball, I don't think you find that Washington (or any other state) has or will have a rep on basketball committees as long as they are using the shot clock (or until the NFHS adopts it, all states within a region use one, or the NFHS changes or ignores their policy on conformance).

It's not that I care if they are allowed on the committee or not. I don't have an interest either way. My whole involvement around this issue is that someone wanted an NFHS comment on a shot clock situation when Tim Roden made the statement that the shot clock is not used in NFHS rules. Someone followed that it was an experiment in some states to which I replied that most of the states that are using it are doing so not as an experiment but simply because they want to. I merely stated the NFHS's published position on the matter.

All told, I think the shot clock will eventually come the NFHS. But, when it does, it will probably be phased in over several years. They are many schools that will have to replace equipment to comply. The NFHS will be sensitive to the ever common school budget contraints before implementing it across the nation.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Nov 1st, 2002 at 06:56 PM]

And Cameron,
 

I would agree that IF a state chooses (separate that from testing) to use different rules than FED then the probably shouldn't be on taht sports rules board. "If you don't like our rules then "pi$$-off" kinda thingy.

I took your original statement that not following a FED rule was a state "thumbing their nose" at FED as a negative statement.

My point stands:

You have no idea WHY some states play ammended rules. You shouldn't race to the most negative reaction possible.

Enough said, I am going back to the basaball board before some one says I sound like Rut.

Back to the Original Topic
 

The NBA uses Precision Time (the wireless timing system that uses a belt pack/microphone attached to each official's whistle). Because of this, there is no "lag time" principle. The only "lag" is between the time the violation or foul occurs and when the whistle is blown.

Clearly, the official cannot blow the whistle at the exact time the violation occurs, hence to 0.6 seconds on the clock.

Good grief Tim, you sound like Rut!

Matt, the NBA had this rule, long before there was PT. And, PT does not always work, hence a Laker game last year that had a similiar type situation, where time had to be put back on the clock when PT didn't stop it.

Exactly - there's a reason why you still see a clock operator at the table during NBA games.