Six on court, but...

[Jim Henry]

Had a tough situation Monday night in 8th grade girl’s conference tourney.

Beginning of 4th period. I administered the throw-in. After the ball is in play my partner blows his whistle for a timeout by “A” coach but also says “A” team has six players on the court and T’s up “A”. Meanwhile, “A” coach is yelling he called a timeout first and no technical.

As it turned out there were six “A” players on the court BUT neither one us discovered the violation or called the technical. My partner called the T after the fact.

I pulled my partner off to the side and I said that if the timeout was called first, then it’s a dead ball and there can’t be a technical foul. “B” coach is in our ear yelling it doesn’t matter when the violation happened; that if there are 6 on the court it is an automatic violation. I told him not automatic unless the ref sees and calls the technical foul. “B” coach is adamant that I am wrong and that his team should shoot two.

I go back to my partner and he said that he has already announced the foul to the scorer and “B” will shoot two and won’t change the call. “A” coach was of course mad and reiterated we were wrong, but we proceeded with the T and told the scorer not to record the timeout by “A” coach.

Turned out “B” (home team) missed both shots and “A” won by 8. But after the game we furthered discussed and feel we made a mistake on allowing the technical shots. Probably a mistake too that we gave the time out back to the “A” coach.

Hate when this happens!

Your comments are welcomed.

[Adam]

1. If your partner blows the whistle for the T at the same time (virtually) he sees 6 players on the court, I've got no problem with sticking with the T.

2. Coach uses his timeout regardless, IMO. He tried to get out of the T by using a TO.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

1. If your partner blows the whistle for the T at the same time (virtually) he sees 6 players on the court, I've got no problem with sticking with the T.

2. Coach uses his timeout regardless, IMO. He tried to get out of the T by using a TO.

I'd enforce the technical and allow the coach to rescind the TO.

And OP, you need a mental checklist you follow before you start each quarter -- it includes counting 5 players from each team, checking to see the clock is reset, making sure the table is ready, and checking the floor for cheerleaders, band members, spectators, etc. The start of a quarter is the most likely time a team will run six out onto the floor and it's almost completely preventable.

[bainsey]

Case 10.1.6 touches on this, but the only time it clearly says it isn't applicable is after time expires. I don't see anything clear whether six have to be "caught in the act."

[tref]

The penalty for more than 5 on the court is enforced if discovered while being violated. In the OP the t/o was granted prior to the T. Can they violate during a dead ball?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

1. If your partner blows the whistle for the T at the same time (virtually) he sees 6 players on the court, I've got no problem with sticking with the T.

2. Coach uses his timeout regardless, IMO. He tried to get out of the T by using a TO.

Disagree. You can't enforce both because both depend on the reason for the whistle. If the whistle was for 6 players on the court, enforce that and ask the coach if he still wants the TO. If the whistle was to grant a TO, the "T" is no longer enforceable by rule but the TO must be taken.

You can choose what the whistle was blown for but you can't choose both.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Disagree. You can't enforce both because both depend on the reason for the whistle. If the whistle was for 6 players on the court, enforce that and ask the coach if he still wants the TO. If the whistle was to grant a TO, the "T" is no longer enforceable by rule but the TO must be taken.

Right. It's what I was assuming above -- that there was a whistle for the 6 on the court.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Case 10.1.6 touches on this, but the only time it clearly says it isn't applicable is after time expires. I don't see anything clear whether six have to be "caught in the act."

Try rule 10-1-6 and PENALTY (Art. 6). That's clear. It says "penalized if discovered while being violated". You don't have anybody participating during a TO.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Right. It's what I was assuming above -- that there was a whistle for the 6 on the court.

I asssume that you assumed that probably because Snaqs said "your partner blows the whistle for the T".

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Try rule 10-1-6 and PENALTY (Art. 6).

Paydirt! Thanks, JR.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I asssume that you assumed that probably because Snaqs said "your partner blows the whistle for the T".

Yeah, I was thinking as he blew the whistle, he saw the 6 players. Frankly, if the coach is asking for a TO that quickly after the start of a quarter, and I hadn't properly counted the players before the start, my brain is going to trigger to do a quick count before I blow the whistle.

I stand corrected on the TO. After I wrote that, it dawned on me that it's no different than a coach requesting a TO just as you call a held ball.

[just another ref]

Here's another case of guys referring to when the whistle blows, when it comes to granting a timeout. Is the whistle itself significant or not? Official sees/hears the request, then sees 6 players, then blows the whistle. Can he call the T or not?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yeah, I was thinking as he blew the whistle, he saw the 6 players. Frankly, if the coach is asking for a TO that quickly after the start of a quarter, and I hadn't properly counted the players before the start, my brain is going to trigger to do a quick count before I blow the whistle.

I stand corrected on the TO. After I wrote that, it dawned on me that it's no different than a coach requesting a TO just as you call a held ball.

That seems strange to me (as a non-basketball official). Isn't the general principle that when you recognize a timeout request with team control you should grant it? Not check to determine if there are any rules being violated?
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[Adam]

Originally Posted by youngump

That seems strange to me (as a non-basketball official). Isn't the general principle that when you recognize a timeout request with team control you should grant it? Not check to determine if there are any rules being violated?

Yep, and I'm granting the TO request. It'll take about half a second, IMO, to count to 5. That, and 9 times out of 10, the other coach (and the fans) is using the word "six" at the same time, so there's going to be a lot going through the mind in this short amount of time.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Here's another case of guys referring to when the whistle blows, when it comes to granting a timeout. Is the whistle itself significant or not? Official sees/hears the request, then sees 6 players, then blows the whistle. Can he call the T or not?

Um no. Snaqs said the whistle was blown for the technical foul. No whistle was ever blown for a TO. When the whistle was blown though is completely irrelevant. What the whistle was blown for determines the subsequent call.

The only confusion is yours. It's a straight-forward play.