Whacked Home Coach.......Probably not deserved.....
 

Situation is this: Worked a big Rival 5A double header last night with two very good Officials. Very competitive game although one team was ranked in the top 8 in the state. (Home team) Gym is loud as it has a very good crowd. Home team misses a shot and as I'm running up the floor to be the new Lead, Home Coach Runs the sideline in my direction and Says "DAMN IT", and I Wacked him. After the gym erupted, I went to report my Technical, and the home coach said, "I was talking to my player. (I said Damn It Andre) I believe he really was talking to his player but the fact that he ran in my direction and the gym saw it, it gave the appearance that he was yelling at me. Right or wrong, I stuck with my technical. If he hadn't of cursed in my direction, It could have been avoided. I actually thought I should not have whacked him but It is what it is. I'd appreciate any input on what you think.......Should I have or not? Thanks for your input in advance...freddie_g2001

this forum, and threads like this are invaluable to us new folks who are still trying to figure out where our "line" is. i'm not qualified to answer your question, but i'd like to pose a follow-up...are t's, once given, ever withdrawn after an explanation from the player/coach?

/thanks

I wouldn't have whacked him for that, especially if he had not been a problem up to that point, and especially if he was talking to his player. I'm all for penalizing coaches for their behavior if need be, but don't get rabbit ears. To me, "damnit" isn't even cursing.

Using profane or inappropriate language is enough for a T, by rule, regardless of how it is directed. For me "DAMN IT" is probably not enough unless I'm sure it's directed to me or my partners. Harsher language, even directed at players, would get me to address it especially if it loud enough for me to hear it.

As I always say, what's profane? These threads always amuse me. There are some who will whack without a second thought someone who screams out "Jesus Christ!" I'm not religious and I wouldn't even give it a second thought.

It comes down to this -- it appears that we are very inconsistent in this area because we are. What's profanity to you isn't profanity to me. And quite frankly, said quietly, I'm not very concerned by any of it unless it's directly at me.

I've got nothing.

I whacked a coach in a youth game for this and would do it again. But it was also in response to a travel my partner called. A high school game I am more apt to let it pass.

Yeah, sounds like a case of rabbit ears. To me, "damn it" is not cursing. And if he didnt add anything after that then how could you be sure he was directing it toward you?

You say he was running the sideline in your direction but presuming that you're watching the players on the court and not the coach, how do you know he was running "at" you.

In a situation like this I might glance over at the coach if I hear some language to see if he really is adressing me. But again, "damn it" followed by nothing else is really not a big deal to me.

IMO, you jumped the gun here and were way too quick to issue a T without being fully aware of what was going on. Another reminder of why it's always good to slow down mentally, even when caught in transitioning from trail to lead.

Once you have issued the T in that situation, it stays. You can't unscramble eggs. Don't let the "I was talking to my player" mantra get in the way. If his player was further away than you, and he said it loud enough for his player to hear, then it was loud enough to be heard in the stands, too. As to judgment on which words cross the line and which words don't, it is a judgment call. Some words will get a T from everybody. Others will get a T from a majority. And still others will get them from a minority. It is still a judgment call. And you are the judge.

Would you have whacked him if he had said, "Come on!"?

To me, it's the exact same thing.

I agree with the board "damn it" is not enough for me to even warn him, nor is any other swear word that is not directed directly to me or my crew. Coaches/players cuss all the time & in the OP it was a packed house. Most times those words cannot be heard clearly over the crowd noise.

Empty gym, coach/player yells out profanity for all to hear... perhaps a different story.

I guess when in Rome ... Around these parts, profanity is always grounds for a "T". But I agree, I don't think what this coach said falls into most people's definition of profanity.

Of course not...well unless it is the cherry on top of a long coming ABS tech.

It's not to me...and probably not to a good portion of the gym out this way.

NFHS has made it clear that speaking to his players is not an excuse for swearing.

"Jimmy, play some Effing defense!" T
"Dammit, Jimmy, play defense." No T.
"Jimmy, you're playing like sh1t!" T
"Jimmy, you're playing like crap!" No T.

My personal standards that are not out of the norm here in my little part of Rome.

yellow card in Rome
 

I moved to Maine halfway through HS. We were playing a very poor opponent and had given up a goal to tie the score. I yelled, "Are you guys ready to stop friggin around?". Tweet. Yellow. AC calls me over & says "Around here THAT F word is the same as the OTHER F word". [never even heard the word in VT, so I didn't really think much about it]

Nor teammates speaking to one another in that manner.

The guy I'm working for tonight would say no to #1 & 3 depending on how loud it was (probably because he works DI & he also speaks that way)... the guy I'm working for tomorrow night would support a T being assessed in #1 & 3 if nobody heard it but me (probably because he is all about the HS game & doesnt speak that way).

I guess "know your audience" has never been more true! Gotta give em what they want, if we want their games, right?!?!

IMHO, it all depends on intent and loudness. I had a Boys JV game yesterday and one of the player's missed his shot and said "sh*t" but had I not been next to him I would not have heard it and he was pissed at himself, no one else so I let it go. Had it been loud enough for others to plainly hear I would have probably whacked him. Had it been the F word, I would have definitely have whacked him.

Even if it was under his breath, in the same context & lower than when he said sh*t?

I actually agree that the volume makes a difference. With both of my examples, if it's quiet enough that only Jimmy and I hear it, I might remind the coach that's he pushing the envelope; depending on the situation. I also might ignore it.

I would have told him to watch his language if he did it like this.

Had something similar, whan a player said f*%k under his breath while running past me. He looked up and saw me and said"oops, sorry". No one else was around and only I heard it. I just chuckled and let it go.

I believe profanity is pretty well defined. What's offensive to one, however, isn't necessarily offensive to another.

Is "damn" cursing? Certainly. Is it profanity? No. Is it offensive? I don't think so, nor would I T-up someone for it. That's very mild.

I don't think what offends is the big question, either. It comes down to what's appropriate for the setting. Carlin's seven words -- plus a few others he left out -- may not offend me, but they simply don't belong at a scholastic contest.

In Maine.

Bingo.

You can discuss this forever but any unsporting technical fouls except for the absolute no-brainers are usually dependant on personal established limits. We all set our own line and those lines will vary. The coaches and players will adjust to your line. Just don't move that line during a game.

There's different ways to keep the game under control and moving. As long as you can do that, you've done your job.

JMO.

My guiding principle in this matter is that HS basketball is an extension of the classroom and the coach is a teacher. If it's inappropriate for a teacher, it's inappropriate for a coach.

I would be hard pressed to issue a T for a "damn," but I do find a convenient moment to remind the coach to guard his language.

I had a player in a BV game leave the game last night and he was frustrated by his play -- he was venting (quietly enough) on the bench to a coach/teammate and I heard an f-bomb or two. I simply turned and said, "watch your mouth, k?" and left it at that. I didn't make a big deal out of it and I didn't even look in the kid's direction. But I heard the assistant coach address it with the kid.

I guess my gripe with guys who T players up for the utterance of a single profanity on the court is that there doesn't seem to be any common sense or context -- it's an emotional game and kids (and adults) tend to use language that may not be shown on TV at 8PM. Who cares? I don't feel it's my job to try to change society one technical foul at a time.

I've heard more than one player in my life utter out a "sh!t" or "damn" after grounding out or missing a steal or doing something else that leaves them frustrated. It's when the remark is directed at me or an opponent that it becomes part of something bigger.

This is one that I handle by saying something to the player like "I understand your frustration, but let's try to keep the language in check."

I also agree with Eastshire that HS athletics are an extension of the classroom...If a teacher in a classroom yelled "DAMN IT, John....Why can't you get these homework problems correct?!?!" I'm pretty sure there would be repercussions...why would it be any different on the basketball court?

Because you're taking that saying and making it something it isn't.

In the classroom, the coach would never openly question the authority of the person running the school, either. They do that *all the time* during a basketball game.

It may be an extension of the classroom, but the rules (especially the unwritten ones) are not the same.

I don't know that I agree the rules are substantially different. A coach is expected to be a role model of good sportsmanship and citizenship. Sure they don't always live up to it, but neither do teachers in the class room. The failure to meet the goals doesn't mean the goals aren't there.

Also, you've not been in a lot of the classrooms I've been in :D.

In some areas, you can hold them to a very tight standard; in fact you're expected to.

In other areas, you're better off showing some discretion.

Neither is worse nor better than the other, but let's stop pretending the standards are the same everywhere.

+1

If you go with the mantra "just let them be emotional," you're asking for trouble, IMO. Leave the emotions for the fans; there's a higher standard for those in the game.

If interscholastic sports are supposed to teach life skills, remaining calm under pressure is an important one, because that skill is a requirement in the real world. I say it every game: Questioning is fine, so long as its done civilly.

When do you say this?

Maybe I should add it to my signature?

In the pregame man! Right before, "Let us know on all fulls & 30s" & after "We're gonna work hard for you tonight." :D

If it's during the coach meet-and-greet (as I'm suspecting), please do.

Snaq -- add this.

I had a partner who said this to both coaches a few weeks ago. If I was a coach, I'd probably say something like, "I'd hope so - that's why you're here, aren't you?"

Thats the same as a man saying, "I take care of my kids!"
I would sure hope so... thats what you're SUPPOSED to do.

Sometimes, stuff just slips out. A number of years ago, a buddy & I went up to the Montreal Forum to see the Habs. We had a mid-level seat. In all the years of going to games there, I had never seen ice level. There was a curtain with an usher at the first level. I explained what we'd like to do and he politely declined. I demurred saying that some people probably just stay there. I added, "But we're not like those other guys." Didn't accomplish anything but to give my buddy ammo for the next 100 years.:o

Pre-game, with a grin and positive energy. "Question anything you like, as long as you're civil about it. Let's have some fun!"

It works. In six years, I've only had to T up a coach once.

So you're one of those who thinks fewer technicals is a reflection of your ability? Or that this one phrase (said with a smile) made a difference?

Cool, but Id like to think your skill set & communication during the game has lead to only 1 T... not the one liners prior to the toss. IJS :D

If he's only called 1 in six years, I'm guessing it's more likely it's because he's probably passed on a few he *should've* called. Or he only works 10 games a season. :D

Bingo!

Didn't I just say that?:)

As I said, there's different ways to keep the game under control and flowing. If your way works for you, then I'd have a tough time telling you...or anyone else.. that my way is better. But.....if you're still getting the b!tching'n'moaning after you tried your way, then it is time to try something different imo.

You can't control a game by following a list made up by someone and then handed out to you (BillyMac just went :eek:........:D ). You control a game according to what you feel is the best and most appropriate action to use to fit the situation you are facing. And what may have worked in one game doesn't mean it will work in another. Sometime you use the carrot. Sometimes you use the stick. And sometimes you use the carrot and then you have to stick it.

I think that most good, experienced officials already know that.

JMO

I don't issue a lot of coach T's. I rarely have a season when I issue none. I have worked with partners who are vocal about others needing to whack a coach. Often, they are the same ones who don't have the gonads to issue one themselves. I have a long ways to go in that area...and some of it is because I am in a new area and am not known by a lot of coaches. But, for 1 in 6 years, I would need to rent a front end loader to unbury me from a lot of crap.

And those that don't TCB when needed make it harder for those who will to come in and wonder where coaches learn that their behavior is OK. Actually, we know -- it's the guy that calls one technical in six years. :D

That goes for coaches & players, I'm so tired of hearing what the refs allowed Lil' Billy to do last game :rolleyes:

Just say there are no 'do overs'. That should fix the problem.:D

What exactly are you saying there, Rich?

Think I'll try that 1, thanks! I usually say, "did I work the last game?" :D

A T for "damn-it" which could have well been directed at his player or just simply venting frustration with regards to a miss shot- No T.

now on the other hand " God damn it" might be deemed highly offensive to some.

So? I know a mother who goes nuts if their kids say "crap." Should we whack a kid for that?

I don't work worrying about what might be offensive to "some."

Nor do I. Nothing offends me- hell I just went and saw Lisa Lampanelli Saturday night.

I was just sayin' you'll find someone who won't tolerate the lords name be taken in vain.

She's funny on the Comedy Central roasts -- although it's funnier when she's the butt of the humor.

You gots ta know your audience . . .
 

A few years ago, I got a call to do some inter-faith youth games, at a local Catholic gym, that's attached to a chapel. During one of the games a young man was upset with his performance on a play, and let out with a "G** d*** it!
I got his attention, and issued a T. His demeanor worsened, and he repeated the phrase, upon which outburst, I asked him if he had driven to the game. When he replied that he had, I told him to go home and think about his actions.
As I reported the T to the table, a priest, seated at the top of the bleachers, behind the table, arose and came down to talk to me.
Not being catholic, I was a bit concerned, as he asked me why I had sent the young man home. I replied, "Father, he took the Lord's Name in vain, twice." To which he said, "I know the young man. I will have a talk with him. Thank you for helping us uphold our standards." As he turned to walk away, I breathed, again . . .
Different situations,/circumstances - different standards.

I won't question the merits of the ejection because you were there and you know the sportsmanship standards to which you are told to uphold. I only have one question/comment.

Why did you send the player home? Was this a league game or a more informal atmosphere? Cause NFHS has directed us to NOT send kids to the locker room area without adult supervision and to only do so if the kid causes a distraction or more problems while on the bench. I would consider telling to a player to drive home even worse. Remember, all the T's have done is disqualified the player.

Disqualification=bench
Ejection=leave the visual confines

APG
I was hoping someone would mention that exact point. I gave the thumbnail sketch of the situation. The young man was exceptionally agitated, and his teammates were trying to calm him down, to no avail. Undoubltedly, his agitation was from some source, other than just the actions of the game. He was eighteen years old, and the assigner, a fellow official, had given me an outline of the standards of the inter-faith league. I was certain that the Father talked to him as he was leaving the building.
As you perceived, my input on this thread is to subtly enforce the reality that we have different standards/guidelines, depending on the environment, and at times, the venue.
Thanks for your response.