Lead is about to administer an endline throw-in to Team A, but Lead is still holding the ball.
A2 prematurely starts her part of the "In-bound" play and gets grabbed by B2.
Center made a holding call.

What's your call?

Explain to Center that ball hadn't been handed over, tell the players to chill, and start over?

Mick,
Since we have a dead ball, you could call a "T", but it's also possible to call an intentional foul here.
I had a play acouple of years ago with less than :10 in the game where Team A lined up in a straight line for a throw in, the thrower in got the ball from the official, and as the guard broke towards the basket, he was grabbed (jersey stretched) from behind by the
defender. I called the intentional foul. The coach of B didn't like it, but what other purpose was the defender achieving other than fouling to prevent an easy layup by Team A? Obviously you need to make the determination
as to intentional or not. In this game A was only up by a couple of points so it was not a popular call with Team B. but oh well. In my view it was the right call.
Sometimes, you also have to weigh the severity of the penalty
when deciding what to assess.
Example. The NBA has an elbow foul that is two free throws and play off the second whether made or missed.
That is for an elbow foul below the shoulder level.
IF above, it CAN be an ejection, but the penalty is still only two shots! Most of the time if there is an elbow to the head, a flagrant foul is called. Two shots, PLUS possession to the offended team.
In your case, if being played under NF rules, the penalty for intentional and technical are the same so it's all up to you. Now, the player who fouled may already have a "T" which could now lead to an ejection. So that's another thing to consider.
Boy , I'm rambling.
If I'm off base with what you're looking for, let me know.
Drake

No Call
 

Call has already been made...remember, you "live and die with it".
I don't like the call at all, but I believe it will look worse to change Center's foul call to a no call...unless by some great chance you can sell the hold as "not intentional" since the ball was dead.
I have to say I also do not like DrakeM's intentional foul call with :10 seconds left, live ball and in a tight ball game.
Call the "Hold" and don't look "over officious"!

RD

With under 2 minutes in the game, shouldn't this have been an away-from-the-play foul? :D One shot for anybody on the floor at the time, and then possession at the same OOB spot. ;)

Seriously, tho, Drake, in your case under NF rules, you can call that intentional, but it has to be an intentional technical. Dead ball contact cannot be a personal foul by rule. So you go with the T, and the intentional part really doesn't make a difference. I totally agree with your reasoning in making the call (obviously done on purpose) tho.

Chuck

It wasn't a dead ball...the player had the ball for the throw in...thus live ball foul..."Holding"
Of course you can have an intentional foul during a live ball...but again, I call Holding in this sitch.

RD



[Edited by RookieDude on Oct 25th, 2002 at 06:22 PM]

I think the original play says the lead is still holding the
ball, so it's gotta be a T (it shoulda been a nothing
but there was a whistle and a raised fist).

Test time: Team B is in the bonus. A1 has the ball for
the throw-in. A2 holds B2 to get A3 open for the inbounds
pass. Foul is called. What happens next under NF & NCAA
rules?

You bury the survivors in Canada!

Thanks. Now I have to clean adult beverage off my monitor, and keyboard, and desk....:D

Geez!
Pass the Windex. :(

Rookie Dude, Dan is correct on all counts. In the original sitch, the official still had the ball. That's why my serious answer said it had to be a T.

My "away-from-the-play" comment was just for Drake, b/c that's an NBA rule and Drake works the WNBA.

Chuck

Gotcha
 

I understand...but, it dosen't HAVE TO be a T...just an intentional foul.

RD

Re: Gotcha
 

A dead ball foul is a T. On a throw in, the ball is
dead UNTIL the ball is handed to the player throwing it in.
In this play it has to be a T, it could be an intentional T.

Re: Gotcha
 

Read R4-19-5c-"a technical foul is an intentional or flagrant contact foul while the ball is dead".
Trust Dan and Chuck!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Oct 25th, 2002 at 08:23 PM]

1)NF-Personal foul on A2. B2 will shoot bonus FT's.
2)NCAA-team control foul on A2.B gets ball OOB for throw in.(I think).

How'd I do on the NCAA one,Slappy?

I'm still trying to figure out why I can't pass the last guy in the race.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/monk.gif

I'm still trying to figure out why I can't pass the last guy in the race.[/B][/QUOTE]Oooooh,that'd be painful!:eek:

May I suggest a mild laxative?

Thanks Chuck.:D
Thinking more about this play, the ball HAD been released by the thrower.
And while I absolutely agree about not being "over-officious", like I said, the defender had hold of the offensive players jersey and it was stretched quite far.
By rule ( and trust me, I'm not a "rule book" official)
and intentional foul is one where an "obvious advantage" is gained. That's what happened on this play. (I went right to my rule book after the game, ready to sho the coach the "rule" if he wanted to "talk."
By the way, even though we don't want to be over-officious,
we also can't be afraid to make the tough call when it is the RIGHT call, and needs to be made, NO MATTER WHAT THE TIME AND SCORE IS! IMO:)

Oooooh,that'd be painful!:eek:

May I suggest a mild laxative? [/B][/QUOTE]

Looks like it's just we 2 here now...I weighed Woody the
other day, 70 lbs! 6 months old...quite a pooch. he's
loving the brisk weather & the falling leaves.

Drake, I know we usually talk NCAA and NF, but by the NBA book (or WNBA book) does it matter if the ball has been released? I don't have my Q&A with me. Even if the throw-in has been released, would it still be considered an away-from-the-play foul? I just can't remember if the away-from-the-play provision ends when the ball is released or when it is touched inbounds.

Couldn't agree more. Well said.

Chuck

Ya done good, JR. Dan is napping, I think. :p But you're exactly right about the NCAA ruling. If, as in the original scenario, the official still had the ball, then it would be an intentional technical foul and B would shoot 2 FTs and get the ball at midcourt.

Chuck

Actually on THIS particular play, whether or not the ball
had been released WOULD factor into the play. If the ball had been released, then this would be just a normal foul, since the ball was intended for the player that was held.
If the ball was not released, then we could have an away from the play foul, or if the foul was committed across the floor on someone "not involved in the play".
Or if we're not under two minutes, then we have the "foul before the ball is released" option, which is two shots regardless of the penalty situation.;)

By the way Chuck,
Did you ever get paid for your USBL game?

Looks like it's just we 2 here now...I weighed Woody the
other day, 70 lbs! 6 months old...quite a pooch. he's
loving the brisk weather & the falling leaves. [/B][/QUOTE]Wow!! I was gonna ask ya how my favorite little ball-less buddy was doing.Ever notice how eunuchs really pile on the weight after....?
Seriously,you thought of getting a saddle for him for the kids? Or maybe when Chuck comes to visit?

I am now running for cover!:D Nighty-night!

Drake, yes, I got paid for that last USBL game. Got the check about a month ago. Maybe I'll go back after all :)

Where is the rule for getting two shots on a foul committed before the ball is released on a throw-in with more than 2 minutes left in the game? I don't remember ever hearing or reading that. Help me out? Thanks

Chuck,
Rule 12B Sec I-(8)

The exception is the away from the play foul.

Found it, Drake. Thanks. Also pulled out my Q&A and the foul under 2 minutes after the ball has been released on the throw-in is the very first first question in the book. LOL. Common foul. Good call.

Chuck

No call because of 4-19-1-note, this rule may also apply to another post discussing false double fouls.

Reference is not applicable,Stan,unless you combine it with R4-19-5c.Correct call is an intentional technical foul because the ball is dead in this sitch.

Stan,
RE: 4-19-1
That's what it looked like from where I was on the endline, ... until it was called. When my partner made the call it has to be a "T", doesn't it?
The "T" in this instance was, in my opinion, outside "spirit and intent", so, right or wrong, I died with my partner's call. :(
mick