Howdy all. Its that time of year again where I provide thought provoking questions, call the old guys "old" and of continue my veteran in training program. So....today's question is...

Whaddya got if....

A) A1 is holding the ball. B1 smacks the ball out of A1's hands (meaning A1 does not control the ball anymore) causing the ball to hit off A1's leg and to roll into the back court. A1 retrieves the ball in the back court.

B) The ball does not touch A1's leg but A1 still retrieves it

C) The Ball does touch A1's leg and A2 retrieves it

NF please

Larks
VIT

C'mon Larks, after being here this long, you know these.

A -- violation

B -- no violation

C -- violation

In A and C, a member of the team in control touched the ball last in the frontcourt and then a member of the same team touched the ball first in backcourt. Tweet!

Chuck

I hear ya. B is easy. A & C just seemed funny to me but I guess its kinda like out of bounds. If A1 is holding the ball, B1 smacks it off A1 and the ball goes out, B1's Ball.

Thanks for the clarification

Since we are bringing up over and back.
JV girls game (Hey one day I will be "big time"ha)
I am in trail (2 person) a step behind ball which is a little behind the division line. A1 puts right foot over line, reverses, pulls foot back and puts ball over line. I have nothing. Partner, in lead blows whistle and calls "Over and Back".
Here is the dilema. Hopefully, this will help me move up if I know how to handle this. I let the play stand. I KNEW that is was not a violation and that all 3 points had not crossed the line. But he was my partner, made the call and off he went. Should I have over ruled? If so, how do you do this and protect your partner? I did talk to him after the game and explained the rule. He did not know about the "3 points" rule. Any suggestions?

Oh boy. You might have done something like this:

- blow the whistle to get everybodys attention, especially his.

- huddle with him. Alone. Away from anyone else.

- In a calm manner explain to him that you were on top of
the play and there was no violation. Explain why. Don't
argue with him, if he disagrees tell him he's got to trust
you on this but the violation won't stand. If he still
disagrees remind him that while he was 50 feet away from
the play you were only 5 feet away from it and there was no
violation. Don't argue, smile, look calm.

- Your partner then declares his whistle to be inadvertent
and you play on.

- If he won't give up the call then let it go, you've done
your best but don't get into a fight on the court. After
the game might be another story ;)

Dan is exactly right...good post Dan! The only thing I would add is this: if your partner does it again in the same game, then pull out a piece of Bubblicious gum - preferably sugarless - and begin chewing it. That way, you will have to remove yourself from the game because of the choking hazard, and won't have to work with that guy anymore!

Dan,
If this happens to me, I can only bite harder on my Fox.
However, if this call became a point of distraction emanating from the bench, and I was called into the mix, then I would feel obliged to take your course of action.

We had one like that last night. C reached across the floor for an incorrect over-and-back 4' in front of me. We went the other way, and then straightened out the interpretation in the officials room at half-time.

Yeah, if anyone knew the rule, the whole crew looks bad. But what are the chances?

mick

If I was a coach in this game, I`d definitely bring this up with the official.

How did the coaches react or were they not paying attention?

Ren

How did the coaches react or were they not paying attention?

Great question. I was paying attention. She was questioning the call. We both knew that the call was wrong, but she did not go ballistic. Earlier in the game she asked if my partner was a first year official and I told her I did not know. (After all I am only in my second!) I did hear a lot of "Can you help your partner out?" from both benches. What I did do was on the next possession was to make a 3 second call on Team B. Team A coach gave me a "Thank You" and Team B coach just smiled. I HATE, and rarely if ever, have a "Make - Up" call, but that was the only way I could think of to keep the situation under control. Probably not the best solution, but the only one I could think of on the fly/

Ouch!
I couldn't have done that.

mick

<i>Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m</i>
<P><b>
I HATE, and rarely if ever, have a "Make - Up" call, but that was the only way I could think of to keep the situation under control. Probably not the best solution, but the only one I could think of on the fly/ </b>

I hope you are kidding. Mom was right when she said that two wrongs don't make a right. No make-up calls. Just say no.

Z

I don't think he's saying he made up the call. I think he just counted a "real" 3-seconds, instead of waiting for 10 or 12 seconds like we do most of the time.

Chuck

I don't think he's saying he made up the call. I think he just counted a "real" 3-seconds, instead of waiting for 10 or 12 seconds like we do most of the time

Thanks Chuck you got my meaning.

The worst thing to me was not the wrong call being made, but the call being made by the lead who was at least 40' away. Who is watching the rest of the court? This would have been the topic of discussion at the next available opportunity. I will hve to live and die with missed or made calls in my area and my partner(s) will have to do the same. In a 2 man game, there is enough problems trying to cover the court if we're both watching our areas...if one of us is ball watching, our problems get worse.

That's what I'm talking about... "Yer Bailin' 'im out!" :)

Stripes, I had this exact conversation with a partner last week. He's a new guy. He took the test last year b/c he was a HS varsity head coach and felt he ought to know the rules better. But b/c of his coaching schedule, i don't think he worked more than a handful of kids' games. So this will be his first real season.

Anyway, we're working an AAU game together and he made 3 or 4 calls right in front of me in a 2 man game. So I gave the "I'm gonna have to live and die with those calls" speech. It's funny that you used the same wording and everything.

Chuck

<i>I don't think he's saying he made up the call. I think he just counted a "real" 3-seconds, instead of waiting for 10 or 12 seconds like we do most of the time</i>

Yeah, that would fit my definition of a make-up call too. I'm not sure it's ever a good idea to adjust play calling to make up for something that previously may have been missed. If you can't "fix it" at the time (like getting together with your partner and getting the rule correct right there), let it go and move on.

Z

Z, in general I totally agree with you. I wasn't defending the call, just pointing out that it wasn't a "phantom" call.

Chuck

Oh boy again. I know a HS coach who's a former small time D1
coach. Older guy, really nice, he just wants to enjoy
himself coaching HS basketball so he's a joy to work for.
One game I worked with this coach I was partnered with a
weak official. Not fun, my friend the coach was not a
joy to work for. At one point he said to me in a slow,
deliberate and very pissed off voice "Dan, sometimes you
just HAVE TO take control." He was right. There are times
you just have to take control.

Quote:

What I did do was on the next possession was to make a 3 second call on Team B. Team A coach gave me a "Thank You" and Team B coach just smiled.

You done good grasshopper. You done every good.

Yeah, if anyone knew the rule, the whole crew looks bad. But what are the chances?


This attitude is one of my pet peeves of officiating (basketball and baseball). Just because 90% of the people don't know the correct ruling, doesn't make it OK to get the call wrong. This only makes situations more difficult in future games, when officials make the CORRECT calls.
A typical comment might be, "Last week JoeRef called that a bakcourt violation. Hey, that's backcourt! Don't you know the rule?"

A responsibility of being an official is calling the game to the best of your ability. Being as fair as possible to each team, and following the rules is our way of respecting the game. I'm not saying we don't make mistakes, as I have over the years, but our actions are TEACHING everyone (players, coaches, fans) what is legal and illegal in the game. We've got to get these basic calls right. IMO

Marty,
While reffing a game, and with an audience of 50 to 500 people, it certainly does give us a wonderful opportunity to display our knowledge of the rules.

What a platform we are provided!
<li>Our partner calls a travel on a great jump stop and we go down to them waving off his call a loudly proclaim the correct rule and application. <li>Our partner calls a block on a perfectly vertical defender and we go down to them waving off his call a loudly proclaim the correct rule and application. <li>Our partner calls traveling on a throw-in and we go down to them waving off his call a loudly proclaim the correct rule and application. <li>Our partner goes to the wrong side of the floor for a free-throw and we go down to them waving off his call a loudly proclaim the correct rule and application.

Yessiree! We proclaim the screw up and we're looking pretty smart out there. Trouble is next game our partners don't show up.

It's yer call. It's yer opinion.

mick

Mick:

I wasn't advocating that we overrule/change our partner's calls. In fact, I would have to live with these calls as you have described in your post. I also was not implying that we are on the court refereeing to show off our rules knowledge. No matter how dismal things are going, I would never show-up or embarass my partner, even though I feel like crawling into a hole.

My concern was with the attitude of being satisfied with a wrong ruling, as long as most people didn't know you blew the call. Perhaps the goals I set for myself are too high.
I want to know every rule. If I'm not sure, I look it up, and study it again and again. I want to follow every mechanic and procedure expected of me for a NFHS referee while officiating a HS game. When referees aren't striving equally as hard do their best, it hurts the game for everyone involved.

Marty,
Not surprisingly, we're probably on the same page.

Regarding:<li>"Yeah, if anyone knew the rule, the whole crew looks bad. But what are the chances?"

When we impose ourselves, <u>without being asked</u>, into a situation where our partners made a bad call, we are telling everyone that is watching, that "<b>we</b>" have erred. Now, everyone knows, not only the 1%-10% that know the rules, but also the 99% that only know that they are at a game.

Ideally, we know all the rules and all the implications because, as you said, we wear out our books by turning the pages.

But, we are gonna have partners that kick a few more than we kick ourselves. It is bad if the partner doesn't know he goofed. It would be better if the partner asks for help if he really feels bad. More likely, he made the call and then asked himself, "Did I kick that one?"

Our experience helps us when we make an "ugly". We weigh the game situation (score, time, place). Then we decide whether, or not, we should say anything or whether, or not, we should leave it alone. Either way, I think we all agree, that eventually we will discuss the play. There are times when we can go to a partner, without being asked, to bail 'im out, when everyone in the gym knows he murdered a call. I know, I have said thanks more than once when a partner came down and asked if I "got a good look at that one?"

Other times, we can know we were so wrong on a big'un, that we may go confer with our partners just to tell them, "Hey, I'm gonna change my call because <u>I'm stoopid</u>, and I would like you to nod your head in agreement."; and that conference appears to the audience like we actually determined something correctly.

But then, you're an Ump, you know this stuff.

mick

Mick:

I agree with everything you posted. Thanks for the response.

Marty

"The only thing I would add is this: if your partner does it again in the same game, then pull out a piece of Bubblicious gum - preferably sugarless - and begin chewing it. That way, you will have to remove yourself from the game because of the choking hazard, and won't have to work with that guy anymore!"

Rocky,
NIIIIIIIIIIIIIICE!!!!!!!!:D:D:D