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bball_lurker Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:05am
Intentional fouls
 
I thought I had this rule straight, but I may be mistaken. Is it something like "you must make a play on the ball when you attempt to foul"?

A little prelim, just to set up the feel of the game.

GJV, good game, lights out shooting, both teams score in the 60's.
Team A, up by 5, 30 seconds to go. A1 drives for for fast break layup and gets hard (but not excessive) foul. A1 stays on the floor in obvious pain for about 5 minutes. Teams are huddled up around coaches, team B laughing and having a good time. She eventually gets to the bench, but after the game had to have and ambulance come get her. So in my mind, this game is getting to the border of out of control.

In any case, with 20 seconds to go, A2 gets the steal backcourt and turns it up court. B5 shoves her hard in the back, with 2 hands. Not that it matters, but b5 is the biggest player on the court, A2 one of the smallest.

The refs call common foul. Am I mistaken here?

JugglingReferee Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bball_lurker (Post 718157)
I thought I had this rule straight, but I may be mistaken. Is it something like "you must make a play on the ball when you attempt to foul"?

A little prelim, just to set up the feel of the game.

GJV, good game, lights out shooting, both teams score in the 60's.
Team A, up by 5, 30 seconds to go. A1 drives for for fast break layup and gets hard (but not excessive) foul. A1 stays on the floor in obvious pain for about 5 minutes. Teams are huddled up around coaches, team B laughing and having a good time. She eventually gets to the bench, but after the game had to have and ambulance come get her. So in my mind, this game is getting to the border of out of control.

In any case, with 20 seconds to go, A2 gets the steal backcourt and turns it up court. B5 shoves her hard in the back, with 2 hands. Not that it matters, but b5 is the biggest player on the court, A2 one of the smallest.

The refs call common foul. Am I mistaken here?
Is a two-handed shove to the back playing the ball? Probably not...

I'd go with a minimum of an intentional foul here. If I thought she tried to injure the player, I've got a flagrant personal foul.

jTheUmp Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:14am
First play: HTBT, but probably just a common foul.

Second play: Intentional foul if it happened as described. Possibly flagrant, but HTBT to make that call.

bob jenkins Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bball_lurker (Post 718157)
I thought I had this rule straight, but I may be mistaken. Is it something like "you must make a play on the ball when you attempt to foul"?
A good rule of thumb, but not absolute.

Loudwhistle Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:24am
second play is at a minimum an intentional

Welpe Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bball_lurker (Post 718157)
In any case, with 20 seconds to go, A2 gets the steal backcourt and turns it up court. B5 shoves her hard in the back, with 2 hands. Not that it matters, but b5 is the biggest player on the court, A2 one of the smallest.
As others have said, this is a minimum intentional. I tossed a player last year at the end of a game for doing this to an opponent going up for an uncontested layup.

RobbyinTN Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bball_lurker (Post 718157)
In any case, with 20 seconds to go, A2 gets the steal backcourt and turns it up court. B5 shoves her hard in the back, with 2 hands. Not that it matters, but b5 is the biggest player on the court, A2 one of the smallest.

The refs call common foul. Am I mistaken here?
Based on what I bolded I would call a flagrant. I am not going to allow this.

Indianaref Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbyinTN (Post 718181)
Based on what I bolded I would call a flagrant. I am not going to allow this.
Me too, as described, flagrant. Hopefully it might have an impact on her next game, if there is a next game for her.

Adam Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 718180)
As others have said, this is a minimum intentional. I tossed a player last year at the end of a game for doing this to an opponent going up for an uncontested layup.
I had a player do this twice in one game. First one, 2nd quarter, I called intentional. Second one, 3rd quarter, my partner called flagrant. The kid was about 6-4, 250, and the 2nd time he shoved "through" a 5-6 point guard going in for a layup.

Welpe Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 718184)
I had a player do this twice in one game. First one, 2nd quarter, I called intentional. Second one, 3rd quarter, my partner called flagrant. The kid was about 6-4, 250, and the 2nd time he shoved "through" a 5-6 point guard going in for a layup.
Sounds like somebody is playing the wrong sport.

Adam Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 718186)
Sounds like somebody is playing the wrong sport.
Yeah, his dad came looking for us after the game; stopped by game management. Then, his mom called the school (they were the visiting team from about 50 miles away) and complained that we (the officials) had taken his right to play basketball away. Chip off the old block.

JugglingReferee Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 718200)
Yeah, his dad came looking for us after the game; stopped by game management. Then, his mom called the school (they were the visiting team from about 50 miles away) and complained that we (the officials) had taken his right to play basketball away. Chip off the old block.
Y U.P.

She doesn't realize that her son ejected himself from the game.

Welpe Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 718200)
Yeah, his dad came looking for us after the game; stopped by game management. Then, his mom called the school (they were the visiting team from about 50 miles away) and complained that we (the officials) had taken his right to play basketball away. Chip off the old block.
Heh...I had almost the same experience. Kid's dad was irate and wanting to have a word with the officials...when he got redirected by game management, he started in on the opposing coach.

BktBallRef Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bball_lurker (Post 718157)
I thought I had this rule straight, but I may be mistaken. Is it something like "you must make a play on the ball when you attempt to foul"?

A little prelim, just to set up the feel of the game.

GJV, good game, lights out shooting, both teams score in the 60's.
Team A, up by 5, 30 seconds to go. A1 drives for for fast break layup and gets hard (but not excessive) foul. A1 stays on the floor in obvious pain for about 5 minutes. Teams are huddled up around coaches, team B laughing and having a good time. She eventually gets to the bench, but after the game had to have and ambulance come get her. So in my mind, this game is getting to the border of out of control.

In any case, with 20 seconds to go, A2 gets the steal backcourt and turns it up court. B5 shoves her hard in the back, with 2 hands. Not that it matters, but b5 is the biggest player on the court, A2 one of the smallest.

The refs call common foul. Am I mistaken here?
On the first play, the depth of the injury really doesn't have anything to do calling the foul intentional or not. You judge it on the merit of the play, not what happens later.

The second is an intentional foul for sure. But simply shoving someone in the back is not flagrant. In judging whether the foul should be flagrant, you would have to consider whether the player was pushed into a wall or the bleachers, was airborne and hit the floor hard, etc.

johnsonboys03 Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 718200)
Yeah, his dad came looking for us after the game; stopped by game management. Then, his mom called the school (they were the visiting team from about 50 miles away) and complained that we (the officials) had taken his right to play basketball away. Chip off the old block.
Wow that's crazy...
A jr high girls game (i know enough said already lol) last season While checking the books and AP arrow I felt a tap on my shoulder. I turned around and a women was standing there screaming "I want to know what a foul is". She kinda caught me off guard. I asked her "are you a parent of a player"...she says "yes I'm the mother of the girl that got thrown to the floor. I replied "mam you need to go sit with the other moms". Surprisingly she shut up and sat down. Start of the next half I'm the R and wouldn't you know she was front row mid court opposite the table lol. While waiting for the teams to clear huddles I sat down beside her and told her that in girls jr high they fall a lot and most times not with any help. She laughed her husband was embarassed and no problems the rest of the game.

bainsey Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 718200)
Then, his mom called the school (they were the visiting team from about 50 miles away) and complained that we (the officials) had taken his right to play basketball away.
Which amendment and/or case play would that be?

WestfordRef Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:31pm
I agree with BBRef, "On the first play, the depth of the injury really doesn't have anything to do calling the foul intentional or not. You judge it on the merit of the play, not what happens later".

Too often I see common fouls called when a player fouls another with no attempt to play the ball. And of course it often happens when the coach is yelling "Foul them", and a player wraps their arms around the player with the ball. Had one last week and the coach complained "He just grabbed him, that's all".

Ok in the NBA, but not high school.

Welpe Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 718234)
Which amendment and/or case play would that be?
The right to travel.

Illinoisref Tue Jan 18, 2011 01:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 718158)
Is a two-handed shove to the back playing the ball? Probably not...

I'd go with a minimum of an intentional foul here. If I thought she tried to injure the player, I've got a flagrant personal foul.


Absolutely agree!

bball_lurker Tue Jan 18, 2011 01:52pm
The first play was just to set the mood of the game, I completely agree it was a common foul.


Now for a much trickier question! We are playing this team again in a few days. Is there any nice friendly way to get a quick rules reminder to the refs?

JugglingReferee Tue Jan 18, 2011 02:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bball_lurker (Post 718298)
The first play was just to set the mood of the game, I completely agree it was a common foul.


Now for a much trickier question! We are playing this team again in a few days. Is there any nice friendly way to get a quick rules reminder to the refs?
Yes. Here it is: " ".

Adam Tue Jan 18, 2011 02:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bball_lurker (Post 718298)
Now for a much trickier question! We are playing this team again in a few days. Is there any nice friendly way to get a quick rules reminder to the refs?
Not really.

bball_lurker Tue Jan 18, 2011 02:21pm
That's what I thought. Ah well, hopefully this one ends a little cleaner!

Adam Tue Jan 18, 2011 02:43pm
LOL, sorry, but all you'd end up doing is annoying the officials on that game. And that's the best case scenario. :D

Adam Tue Jan 18, 2011 02:45pm
Best you can do is have your AD contact the assigner (if applicable) and ask him/her about the enforcement of this rule. A reminder may be in order that intentional fouls aren't nuclear bombs.

Raymond Tue Jan 18, 2011 04:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bball_lurker (Post 718298)
The first play was just to set the mood of the game, I completely agree it was a common foul.


Now for a much trickier question! We are playing this team again in a few days. Is there any nice friendly way to get a quick rules reminder to the refs?
Multiple answers to this:
  1. Do you expect the same officials for the next game?
  2. If you don't have the same refs do you expect the next crew to make the same "mistake"?
  3. If it is the same crew and they did happen to make a "mistake" what's make you think they didn't learn from it? When you make a mistake coaching do the parents need to remind you not to make it again in the next game?

I'm sure you get the gist of my response. Officials don't really need reminders from coaches. If you feel it's a problem that needs to be addressed then send your concerns to the assignor, commissioner, or state association so that they can decide if the officials need a reminder about a certain rule.

Just my $0.02 :)


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