Verbals out of Limits

[zebraman]

RefDaddy,

I agree with the others that deciding ahead of time what is going to be a "T" doesn't always work. There may be some actions that are automatic though.
A clipboard slammed to the ground by a coach. A coach kicking a bleacher so loud that everyone in the gym hears it.

Rut,

It is not just how we make calls, we will be judged by the way we deal with the people in the game.

Agreed

Officiating is much more a people business than it is what the rules are and how we apply them.

No, actually it's both. If you don't know the rules and how to apply them, your people skills won't help you B.S. your way through.

All the good officials keep making that point over and over again.

Actually, good officials probably make that point once. Sub-par, inferior officials keep bringing it up over and over and over and over.

Z

[hawkk]

rainmaker-

I'm sure I have less formal training and much lower levels of experience than you-- I was never formally trained, but reffed 5th-8th grade BBall for several years for my old school many years ago, and will probably try to ref "for real" when the kids get older. (I also reffed a lot of kids soccer starting when I was very young.) With that disclaimer, let me make a suggestion:

Don't think of yourlist as a "list," but as general guidelines to use to assist in exercising your judgment quickly. I'll bet if you posted your list, the clever minds here could come up with an exception to almost every entry on the list. At the same time, having thought of various scenarios -- and, hopefully, what might be exceptions to those scenarios -- I'd bet you'll be in a better position to make a quick decision exercising discretion when the time comes. But for the good of the game, I humbly submit, every T should be an exercise of considered discretion, not a mechanical application of a list of preconsidered thoughts.

[mick]

In accordance with most of the posters above, I too agree that if a "list" is in mind, the mere sound of the word may trigger a reflex and an accidental, irrevocable penalty.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by hawkk
But for the good of the game, I humbly submit, every T should be an exercise of considered discretion, not a mechanical application of a list of preconsidered thoughts. [/B]

Whoa,that's way too deep for me!

I've always gone by the simple rule - " If thou pisseth me off, thou shall get your a$$ T'd up".

Works for me!

[robref1]

I always try to use this tip a mentor gave me awhile ago..We do not give out T's, coaches and players earn them, we just administer it. Make sure it is something you can explain in a few words or better yet not at all so everyone can see why the person earned it...

[Dan_ref]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I've always gone by the simple rule - " If thou pisseth me off, thou shall get your a$$ T'd up".

Works for me!

Some of us prefer to just slap 'em.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman
RefDaddy,

I agree with the others that deciding ahead of time what is going to be a "T" doesn't always work. There may be some actions that are automatic though.
A clipboard slammed to the ground by a coach. A coach kicking a bleacher so loud that everyone in the gym hears it.

I did not say that actions did not warrant automatic or easy decisions about giving a T. But even slamming a clipboard is going to have some context. If a coach is clearly mad at his own players, I might pass (timeout situation). But if that action is at all directed at me, I do not have much to think about. Again this is personal and you have to decide what crosses the line for you own games.

Originally posted by zebraman

No, actually it's both. If you don't know the rules and how to apply them, your people skills won't help you B.S. your way through.

Z, we are just not going to agree on this. I respect how you feel, but have had too many D1 and pro officials say that officiating is about people (different sports too). Every coach is going to express distain for situations that you call. They are not going to always know the rule or understand why you made that call. The equalizer is how you explain, not explain, or just simply handle those conflicts. Because many conferences or places I work, when I have messed up with a call of some kind, I was given a pass or my call was accepted because of who I was. I have worked with several officials that the coaches stayed away from no matter what they called, because they had a very good reputation as being a very good official. So on the boarderline call, their call was accepted much more than myself who they did not know or had never seen. Just because you have people skills to explain your calls does not mean at all that you had to BS your way through anything. All it might mean is that you are approachable and the coach and sometimes player feel you are hearing them and paying attention to their concerns. Ignoring coaches can just make them think you only care about being right.


All the good officials keep making that point over and over again.

Originally posted by zebraman

Actually, good officials probably make that point once. Sub-par, inferior officials keep bringing it up over and over and over and over.

Like anything, officiating is product of where you come from and who is teaching you. I fortunately have come in contact and belong to some very good associations with officials literally from all different levels. From the varsity State Final Official and State Rules Interpreter, to the NBA Official (NFL too). I have been very fortunate to listen to many of these accomplished officials speak. And the reacurring theme, is people skills and common sense. Not what was your test score last year. Not what rule you can quote. Not how you understand all the ins and outs of 2-10, but dealing with people and being approachable. Not ignoring coaches or how many Ts you can give, but being approachable. If all you can do is think of ways to T coaches, then that is what you will be remembered for.

Peace

[zebraman]

But even slamming a clipboard is going to have some context. If a coach is clearly mad at his own players, I might pass (timeout situation).

Perhaps true. I did not think of that possibility as I have only seen one clipboard flung and it was in frustration at a "non-call." I might T the coach even if it was directed at his own players though as tossing a clipboard for any reason is starting to get pretty abusive. But your point is that even that action is a personal decision and I agree.

Every coach is going to express distain for situations that you call. They are not going to always know the rule or understand why you made that call. The equalizer is how you explain, not explain, or just simply handle those conflicts.


True......at that point in time. But you better know the rule. I have seen conferences (even in high school) ordered games resumed from certain points because the officials did not know a rule. I have never seen them disciplined because they failed to emit great presence. Last year, an important H.S. game here went into overtime. Rather than start the O.T. with a jump ball, the officials continued on with the alternating procedure. The conference ordered the game resumed from that point with the same two refs. Talk about embarrassing!

Because many conferences or places I work, when I have messed up with a call of some kind, I was given a pass or my call was accepted because of who I was. I have worked with several officials that the coaches stayed away from no matter what they called, because they had a very good reputation as being a very good official.

And I have no doubt that the coaches have taken note that these same refs know the rulebook inside and out as well.

All it might mean is that you are approachable and the coach and sometimes player feel you are hearing them and paying attention to their concerns. Ignoring coaches can just make them think you only care about being right.

Rut, I agree that being approachable is a great trait (although there are times when it's best to stay away from a frustrated coach). Coaches are always going to question judgment on calls that go against them regardless of your presence. If you blow a call because you did not know a rule and it has a hand in determining the game.... yikes.


Like anything, officiating is product of where you come from and who is teaching you.

Agreed. And it's also a product of studying the rule book, the case book, and your own game experience.

I fortunately have come in contact and belong to some very good associations with officials literally from all different levels. From the varsity State Final Official and
State Rules Interpreter, to the NBA Official (NFL too).


Me too (except for the NFL since I don't officiate football).

I have been very fortunate to listen to many of these accomplished officials speak. And the reacurring theme, is people skills and common sense. Not what was your test score last year. Not what rule you can quote. Not how you understand all the ins and outs of 2-10, but dealing with people and being approachable. Not ignoring coaches or how many Ts you can give, but being approachable. If all you can do is think of ways to T coaches, then that is what you will be remembered for.


I have heard those same speeches. But I have also heard these same people say, "the rulebook is your best friend." Many of them have told stories about screwing up a rule and having it be the most embarrassing moment of their officiating careers. They are where they are because they mastered the rule book and then had the people skills and game management skills to take it even higher (and of course the ambition to want to ref at a higher level).
We have guys in our assoc who know the rulebook pretty good, but hand out T's like they are giving out Halloween candy. They don't advance so I agree that it's very important to have all the tools. But they wouldn't even be in the position to advance if they hadn't learned how to master and apply the rules first.

Peace to your bad self.

Z

[JRutledge]

This is my opinion. I do not expect you or anyone to agree with my point of view on this or anything. Not everyone holds the same point of view on politics and I am sure they are not going to hold the same views on what it takes to be a good official.

You are right that no one gets downgraded for not having good presence, but they never get on the court if they do not. When I have a coach complain to me or any other official about a rules mistake that happens in their favor, let me know. Espcially when those rules debate with coaches come with Pro and College references that do not apply to the HS level in which most of us officiate. My football season is almost over and everytime a coach complains about the rule they talk about NFL and NCAA rules and how your call has to do with what you see on Sunday and Saturday. It almost is never about the NF rule or reference (uncatchable balls, hallo rule, chucking within 5 yards just to name a few).

If you feel that rules and only rules will get you over the top. But just like Millionares debate over how the became rich or Sales people debate over how they get the big sale, we will disagree about what it takes to become a good official. I know one thing, if you officiate in the old Chicago Public League Red West or the Chicago Catholic League, you better have some people skills to deal with that situation. Quoting rules will get you no where.

Peace

[zebraman]

You are right that no one gets downgraded for not having good presence, but they never get on the court if they do not.

Sure they do. Most of us had very little presence when we first started. We were just hoping to get off the court alive. :-)

If you feel that rules and only rules will get you over the top.

Looks like you are holding to your own beliefs so hard that you aren't reading any of what I write. I said it's all important in the scheme of things.

My football season is almost over and everytime a coach complains about the rule they talk about NFL and NCAA rules and how your call has to do with what you see on Sunday and Saturday.

That's because they don't know the rules. However, you are expected to.

Z

[bard]

I like Juulie's post. I, too, play and replay situations in my mind. If I have not considered how I will handle certain types of language and behavior in certain types of situations, I do not feel I will be prepared when a situation arises. I absolutely do not believe that because I have a list--vague though it may be be--of epithets and contexts in mind that I am overly likely to call a 'T' at an inappropriate time. I believe I'm being prepared. Perhaps what I have is more of a list of scenarios than it is a list of words.

Example, if I hear a 5th grader say an f-bomb, there's a 95% probability he's getting a T, even if no one else heard it other than me. It's better he learns these lessons in the 5th grade.

Upper grades, it's quite unlikely I'll T for the same muffled profanity. If that profanity is heard by anyone off the court, especially youngsters, a T is extremely likely.

(BTW--I didn't give any T's for bad language last year.)

[JRutledge]

you have the right to believe in what you want to.

I was at a college meeting on Sunday. The College Assignment chairman showed a tape of a game of an 0-15 team playing a 10-5 team. The officials T'd up two players in a chippy game. The Assignment Chairman did not use the tape to be critical of the officials for a mistake with the rules, he used the tape to illustrate how to deal with the people and the game. When you move up the focus greatly shifts from rules situations, to people situations. You do not do college ball by being what officials and assignors call a "rules guy." When in this very meeting they started talking about the "interrupted dribble rule and 3 seconds" the first thing came out of one Assignment Chairman's mouth was, "you will be remembered." Trust me, it was not meant in a good way.

Have a great season in basketball and everything else.

Peace

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Anyone can read, recite, and eventually understand a rules book. But you guys are correct that ability to state the rules and to do well on the Part II test is not what makes a good official.

People skills (leadership) is what separates the policemen from the exceptional official.

If I made an estimate I would suggest that a great official is 80 percent people skills and 20 percent rulebook learning. This is why so many of us have difficulty advancing - applying ourselves to the rulebook is easy. It is there for us to read and memorize. But the best we can achieve is 20 percent of the full requirement. Developing personality and leadership skills is much more difficult. There is no rulebook and in general it takes a mentor and some powerfully strong examples. Those don't automatically come when we pay our association dues. To develop the 80 percent you have to go out and find that stuff.

Paying attention in this forum is a good way to get started AND we all need a personal mentor.

Happy searching... and may we all find exemplary mentors.

[Cyber-Ref]

Zebraman said:

There may be some actions that are automatic though.
A clipboard slammed to the ground by a coach. A coach kicking a bleacher so loud that everyone in the gym hears it.


A coach acting out like that deserves a "T". My high school coach from '68 to '71 was famous for kicking the bleachers. But the refs seemed to ignor that behavior. At the time as a teenage player I found it somewhat amusing. But now when we ex players get together and talk about the good old B-Ball days all we can talk about is what a jerk coach was and not what we learned from the game. Now I wish the refs would have been more assertive.

[Jay R]

Posted by Downtown Tony Brown
"Anyone can read, recite, and eventually understand a rules book."

I am not sure I agree. As a teacher, I know many who could not understand the rulebook. Most officials are fairly literate and intelligent.

As for the debate about kmowing the rules or having people skills. It's obvious that both are important. We would not want young officials to think the rulebook is not important. A rookie at our meeting the other night asked:"Do I really need to buy a rulebook?" We all need a rulebook and a casebook to master the rules. Then, we will hopefully develop those skills that can make us a great official.

Jay