Table Official Off His Game That Night
 

2-11: A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time
until the referee approves the final score.

Third quarter. Visitor player B1 is whistled for a personal foul. Just a minute or so prior to this I recall that the scoreboard showed that player had just committed his third foul. I go to the table to report the foul and the official scorebook keeper gives me the "That's his fifth foul" signal. :confused::confused::confused:

Now, the visitor's book has it that this was only his fourth personal. The scoreboard operator thinks it was only his fourth personal. The entire gym knows this was only his fourth personal. Heck, from what I sensed after seeing the scoreboard signify it was his third foul only a few minutes earlier, I thought it was his fourth foul, as did my two partners. But the official scorekeeper's book said it was his fifth personal foul.

Is this one of those "bookkeeping mistakes" which, due to an error obvious to everyone but the official scorebook keeper, may be corrected at the referee's behest, or do we have to go with what the official book says in spite of the erroneous nature of the table official's ;) written record?

That is a bookkeeping mistake that MAY be corrected with definite knowledge.

I would go with your knowledge along with 2-11-11; correct the official book and get the game moving again.

While I agree, it's entirely possible that the scoreboard was wrong when it showed 3 fouls (it should have been 4).

Not enough infor in the OP to tell.

I can see that point. There could have been better communication with all personnel at the table.

Agree - It goes back to definite knowledge - which is difficult to know on items such as how many fouls a player actually has. I certainly don't keep up with them.

Pythagoras' Theorem ...
 

You could check that the team total equals the sum of the team personal totals.

The 2 scorebooks should of been in constant communication with one another.

On another note, the scoreboard operator should of been making sure both books were staying in constant communication & asked both books about player foul counts.

Of course. But, the question was what to do if there has been a mistake, not how to minimize the mistakes.

Well since the OP happened in the 3rd Qtr., then apparently neither book conferred during halftime to compare records, nor did the scoreboard operator ask to compare the books during halftime to compare with what was recorded on the scoreboard.

Definite knowledge does apply.

Was there not another record available (PA Announcer, Asst. Coach/Statistician) on foul counts?

Bob, since you're saying the OP Question is what needs to be done if there's a mistake, at the same time the question is being asked what should of been done to minimize any mistakes from happening.

No, this isn't apparent at all, as the discrepancy could have happened in the third quarter. :rolleyes:

1. No, that question is neither implied by nor properly inferred from the OP. First of all, from the perspective of an official, it's impossible to make sure the two are talking and comparing during the game. That's as far from our purview as players' jewelry is from yours. Secondly, how to fix a problem is a completely different issue from how to prevent it (which is often times known by the OP.)

2. You may want to provide that information, but it was by no means asked by the OP.

3. Fixed it for you.

So I have a different way of thinking, where in order to fix a problem, it is better to have prevented the mistake from happening in the first place.

I do realize that not always can a mistake be prevented however.

BTW thanks for the fix

Let's just say I found the fix you suggested to be far more apparent and obvious than your assumption that the books and scoreboard did not talk at half time.

Unfortunately I have seen it happen before where the books did not do comparisons during halftime :(:eek:

When I'm on scoreboard I'm in constant communication with the books concerning fouls, point totals, & who scored.

During halftime, I'm always comparing the books against what's on the board concerning fouls. (it helps that there's an option available to review player fouls on the board)

Yes, definite knowledge applies in this situation-correct the home book and move on.At our school we use the Mark V books which gives you no established space under the team foul to record the jersey # of a player just called for a foul.What I have started to do this year is cross out the team foul and then record the jersey # next to the team foul.That way if things get a bit hairy and a coach says-"No # ___ does not have ___ fouls.She has ___." I can say she picked up team fouls (appropriate # of team fouls).If something like this were to happen in a game I was working I can go back and check my team fouls as a second reference.

You're using different Mark V books than we have here. The Mark V books we use here have both Player & Team Foul spaces.

The mark v books we use give all the standard stuff except where it gives team foul # and a space underneath to record the jersey in some books we just have the team foul number to cross off.What I meant to say was that after crossing off the team foul I write the jersey # of the player called for that foul next to the corresponding team foul.

Here's an image of the Mark V scorebook we use around here.

http://images.bizrate.com/resize?sq=500&uid=1980789596

How's this for a scorebook?

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/Stats_.../scorebook.pdf

Speaking of one rule would like to see changed, let's make all HS games become 16 minute halves (instead of 8-minute quarters) so that players can transition into college ball easier. Also, as I see it, a better scorebook.

That's a stupid reason. IMO of course.

I was trying to think of other reasons but my mind went blank

Chseagle,
We use the same book.When I cross out the team foul I record the player's number right next to it as a secondary check.

I honestly can't think of any good reasons to make the change. I can't think of any reasons not to, either.

O ok an additional statistic to see who fouls when, depending on the team foul count.

If you can't think of a reason, then why would you suggest the change?

I don't think your mind WENT blank, I think it's nearly always that way.

If my mind was ALWAYS blank, wouldn't I be a vegetable?

It's like stomping a puppy.

I dunno. Does Mrs. Chseagle water you twice a week? :D

Obviously.

Or on message boards. One can only hope.

:eek: :mad: Remind me not to bring Krispy Kremes home for you from the next rabbit show which involves driving past one. :P I water him at least 2x times a day, but not after Midnight. I don't want him to turn into a Gremlin. :D

What's Next ??? Midget Wrestling ???
 

Great? Now we're featuring tag team professional wrestling on the Forum.

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbn...0631&index=ch1

[QUOTE=BillyMac;717124]Great? Now we're featuring tag team professional wrestling on the Forum.

I was just being a pest to him. I gave him a bottle of water after I posted that. We like to joke & be pests to each other from time to time. I didn't work the last minute game on Friday that was moved from a Away game to a Home game as I had a out-of-state rabbit show & was zonked.

Yes there were several people that missed her being there (including the Varsity Timer, who said that the basketball games should have higher priority).

Bookkepping mistakes are a huge concern in one area that I work where high school students are handling the book and the clock in varsity games. I've been burnt more than once even after admonishing the two bookkeepers to work together, keep in synch and periodically checking with the table for fouls.

This post got me thinking again about this. In situations where I know there is a potential problem, I'm resolved going forward to:



1. during pre-game with partner(s), emphasize regularly checking and confirming fouls, score and arrow

2. during table pre-game, emphatically instruct the bookkeepers and timer to confirm totals after every foul and score

3. during pre-game coaches meeting, advise coaches to look out for and report any clock/book issues at the earliest appropriate opportunity

4. check foul totals during reporting of each foul and periodically confirm with partner(s)

5. at half time, confirm total and player score , arrow individual and team foul totals


Any other thoughts? I may put together a more formal list and share it with other officials. As I said, its a huge issue, and I join a long list of officials who have been burnt by the table.

If it's a huge issue, we should be going to that school's AD to get the problem fixed. It's the school's responsibility to supply competent table personnel. We as officials have enough to do now without getting into that area.

Cure the disease, not the symptoms.

Unfortunately, not getting into that area is a luxury that I can't afford. by all means I'll pursue the issue with ADS and above. but once I'm on a game, as an official the table is my concern and can ruin a game if it is not properly managed by the officials.

Is this a problem at multiple schools?

yes. approximately 50 to varying degrees.

How about pgs. 83-85 of the 2009-2011 NFHS Basketball Officials Manual as that deals with the selecting of table personnel?

Making a suggestion to the AD that he/she reads this.

Wanja,
Why are high school students handling the scoreboard/clock for a varsity game? Here that would be unacceptable but it would be perfectly acceptable to have a student do the book in a varsity game. My preference would be for CIF-SS (our governing body) to expand the mandatory "adults run the table" rule for playoffs and have it govern all regular season games.This happens at every school in our new league except two.Consequence for violation would be just like the violation of our official ball contracts for playoffs-loss of the next available home date (if eliminated/team misses postseason penalty carries to next year).
AD's need to make sure that they are giving their kids the best possible experience from hiring good qualified coaches to giving them solid, qualified table personnel.If 50 schools are having some problems with their crews it may be time to email each of the 50 AD's and offer some kind of remedial instruction for those schools with your area's instructional chair.Either that or report them to your state association for them to deal with.

+1

Why not make things easier & mandate that all table crews (no matter the level) must be adults?

I have no problems with student score keepers at the lower levels as long as they know exactly what they are doing! My JV scorekeepers know exactly what they are doing because I teach them myself certain things they must do to maintain game flow and control. I would not have a problem asking one of these students to handle a varsity game if I were ever unable to.

Wanja-If table ops are such an issue in your area why don't you and your brethren solve the problem by issuing table ratings.Here are some categories I would rate on:

A.All members of the crew (Scorekeeper,Scoreboard/Clock Operator,and Shot Clock operator-Where applicable) were present when R assumed control of the game. Y-2/3 Points N-0 Points

B.All members of the crew had their cell phones put away for the duration of this contest. Y-2/3 Points N-0 Points

C.Official scorekeeper made contact with reporting official on all fouls.
Y-1 Point N-0 Points

D.Official scorekeeper communicated effectively with officials on the floor regarding bonus,timeouts remaining,and disqualifications.
Y-1 Point N-0 Points

E.Official scorekeeper communicated with visiting scorekeeper.
Y-1 Point N-0 Points

E.Scoreboard Operator was prompt on stopping the clock with official's whistle. Y-1 Point N-0 Points

F.Scoreboard Operator was prompt in adding points after made baskets and waited until foul was reported to change team foul count. Y-2 Points N-0 Points

Where Applicable:
G.Shot Clock Operator promptly started/stopped the clock on officials whistle/signal.
Y-1 Point N-0 Points

H.Shot Clock Operator reset the clock at appropriate times.
Y-1 Point N-0 Points

Total Score:

Scale:
12/14-10:Would love to have this crew working everywhere I go.
9-6:This is a good solid crew that needed minor instruction.
5 and below:E-mail your assignor immediately!This crew should not work at any level of HS basketball.School must replace crew in order to keep the services of this association.

Ok, let's make this list mandatory throughout the land, this way all those that work table crew & ADs know what needs to be worked on.

Of course, this does raise the question of how many ADs follow what is written in the 2009-2011 NFHS Basketball Officials Manual Appendix 4.

Just when I thought things on here couldn't possibly get more derailed I see this new poster.

Thanks folks for some useful suggestions in trying to get better prepared personnel to the table. That focus is appropriate and your suggestions may help.

I am surprised that there was not also more of a response on how to deal with table staff that are not well prepared at game time.

Seems to me I'd much rather have a student working the clock and scoreboard than the book. Maybe it's just me, though.

I can barely stand one squawking eagle let alone two!!

Depends on the level and people Snaqwells-

I was at a freshmen girls tournament where the students running the table constantly hit the horn when the coaches from one team but not the other were attempting to call timeout.It was a three court set up and between whistles and horns from other courts things got quite confusing.Eventually the coaches from our school asked the refs about this and they put a stop to it. :confused::confused::confused:

I have also seen a high school student handle a varsity girls game (running both game and shot clocks) and do a very passable job.He did better than some adults I have seen when they only have to run one or the other.The point is kid or adult people in "The Trench" better know what they are doing or you and your partner are going to be in for a long night.

If you have people that are unprepared at game time there really is not a lot you can do about it.Just get in, do your game(s),and get out!Maybe an email to the AD the next day is in order if it is really bad.How many of you have taken this step and did it get you anywhere on the next visit to that school?

Concerning table crews and students, it would help if either the student has previously played or the coach has trained them properly. It does help if the other scorer knows what they are doing. Concerning students, their maturity level can play a factor into how well they do things.