Charge/Block question
 

This afternoon I had a disagreement with a colleague at lunch. We were debating if what Shaq does posting up is a charge, block, or no call. My colleague said that when Shaq pushes people back with his butt that is a charge. I disagreed. It seems he wants Shaq punished for having a clear weight advantage and able to use some it to get position or post up. Is what Shaq does with his caboose any different then a smaller forward pushing back with his back?

Bottom line to what I am asking- When Shaq pushes people back with his butt is that a charge? The defender is behind him and not in front.

Thoughts? I bolded a part I thought was relevant that would make it seem like it was not a charge.

This is from NBA.com.-A block/charge foul occurs when a defender tries to get in front of his man to stop him from going in that direction. If he does not get into a legal defensive position and contact occurs, it is a blocking foul. If he gets to a legal position and the offensive player runs into him it is an offensive foul. In both situations, if the contact is minimal, no foul may be called. To get into a legal position defending against the dribbler, the defender just needs to get in front of him. On a drive to the basket, the defender must get to his position before the shooter starts his upward shooting motion. For most other cases, the defender must get into position and allow enough distance for the offensive player to stop and/or change direction.

Most here don't work the NBA, so the way it's called there might not match the answers you get here.

That said, if the defender has a legal position, it's a foul for another player to push / force the defender out of that position (displacement).

Now, if the offensive player "makes contact" and the defnesive player voluntarily "gives ground," that's a legal play.

Front refers to the direction he is going, and is not related to any part of the body.

I am writing as a curious fan, who created quite a debate in the lunch room today.

Just seems to be you can't call a charging foul on a man who at times has a 100 pound advantage and is posting up. If the defender is behind him and is getting manhandled, how do you call an offensive foul?

Easy. The defender (or any player for that matter) is entitled to their current spot on the floor when it has been legally obtained. If the offensive player makes contact that displaces them from their legally obtained position, that's an offensive (player control or team control) foul by rule.

By blowing the whistle and pointing the other way. ;)

Size doesn't mean the rules don't apply to him.

You're dangerously close to going from writing as "a curious fan" to writing as a "fan-boy." The former is welcomed; the latter, not so much.

But how is dribbling towards the basket, back turned, a foul? At what point does the offensive player then no longer have the right to make an attempt to the basket.

Are you then saying once a defender is covering a man, all attempts to move towards the hoop are a charge? If a guy like Shaq or Dwight Howard dribble with their butt first how is that different then Kobe going straight on?

Seems to me there is no standard nor is there set way.

If the defender has a legal position, then the offensive player cannot displace the defender. That's true whether the offiensive player is facing the basket or "backing down" the defender. The offensive player must stop or go around.

Illegal contact is illegal contact. If the defender has established himself in the path of the dribbler or is in his legally acquired posted up position, if the offensive player dislodges him or the contact is illegal a foul has occured. It does not matter when the contact is with his back, shoulder, butt, arm, ear or nose, illegal contact is illegal contact and is a foul.

Think of it this way. You drive a small and you are stopped at a stop light. There is a car in front of you. A real BIG car. All cars are not moving. The car in front of you decides to put the car in reverse and smashes into you. Who is at fault?:)
Now return to your regular scheduled program.

Forget front and back. It's all about the path of the player. If the defender establishes himself in that path and is run over, the foul is on the offense.

There is a standard and set way under high school, college and international rules. The NBA? Not so much.

I've been involved with basketball officiating for over 50 years and I don't have a clue what a "foul' is in the NBA.

Isn't that when a non-star player impedes a star player in any way, legally or illegally?

Because "manhandling" isn't legal. How far do you think it's ok to push? I can tell you I would call a lot of those "moves" fouls if they happened in my high school games.

I don't really understand the question? :confused:

If a defender gets a legal position and an offensive player causes displacement, there can only be a charge or no call. When the rules say get in front of the defender, they don't mean one has to go face to face. They mean get in front of the offensive player's path.

Sure there is - go back and read your original post..from nba.com: "If he gets to a legal position and the offensive player runs into him it is an offensive foul." Doesn't get much clearer than that....it doesn't matter if the offensive player is going forwards, backwards, sideways or turning somersaults.

You asked a question and in response have been given good and accurate information by some very experienced officials - being argumentative, especially out of ignorance won't help your case. As the title indicates, this is an officiating forum - a place where officials and interested others get together to discuss and improve our knowledge and understanding of officiating the game of basketball. Anyone interested in learning more about the sport and how it is officiated is always welcome. But as Bob indicated, for "fan-boys" -those that simply want to espouse opinions and aren't interested in the facts - there are other discussion boards that are more suitable....

Being a curious fan can be a good thing, but being an informed and knowledgeable fan is much better. If you want to be the latter, I'd suggest you spend some time learning the fundamentals and rules of basketball.

+1

Then as an official please tell me why Shaq, Dwight Howard, and Greg Oden at OSU were never called for charging in their careers? In the NBA, and in the NCAA this is seen all the time and is never called. So what is that reason then, is it not a foul, or special treatment?

You must not watch much basketball.

Shaq is called for offensive fouls quite often. On Christmas Day, if fouled out while playing less than a full quarter. If the defender holds his ground, Shaq is routinely called for offensive fouls.

In the Magic's second playoff series last year, Dwight Howard stayed in so much foul trouble, he was irrelevant in the series. He incurs numerous technical fouls for complaining about these fouls.

Greg Oden can't stay healthy long enough to commit an offensive foul. He's the 21st century's version of Sam Bowie.

Actually, it's called quite often in the NCAA. In the NBA, it's called to a lesser extent because the assoication is about entetainment, not basketball.

BTW, using words like alsways and never is a very bad idea.

That's just a silly statement. Those guys have been called for charging fouls. Also, bob answered your question correctly in the very first post of this thread.

Anybody Remember Title VIII ???
 

Not even in a girl's game?

Here is a link to NBA Post Up's on YouTube. Sorry about the music, just mute it.

YouTube - Post Moves

Starting at 1:03 with Carmelo who uses his Butt to create space you will see there was no call. This is the stuff I'm talking about.

Also Boozer at 1:40 is the prime example of what I am referring too. That is the move Shaq and other big men have done their whole careers.

You been in the nog again? :)

CFGUY06:

If you are looking for answers as to who the rules are administered in the NBA you are asking the wrong group. While some of us stay on top of the NBA Rules, that does not mean we understand how they are applied on the court. NFHS, NCAA, and FIBA (sometimes) are our primary areas of expertise.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. How is the weather is Central Florida today?

Billy:

You are a naughty naughty boy. :eek:

MTD, Sr.

The play at 1:40, I have the defender "giving up ground" If a defender is going to do that, then I have nothing. The play at 1:03 is didn't see anything wrong with that. Shane is slighty off balance thus making the bump look worse than it is. The play I could see a foul called on is the play after the 1:03 with Carmelo.

Two separate issues:
1. What is the rule?
2. How do NBA officials enforce the rule?

You have been given the answer to #1. Nobody knows the answer to #2, so don't expect much of an answer there.

As we've already told you:

#1 - the defender doesn't hold his ground and gives way, he's not going to get the call in the NBA.

#2 - The NBA is entertainment, not basketball. They call it they want the league wants it called.

#3 - That does NOT mean offensive fouls are never called. You lose credibility when you post things like that.

In both of those examples, the officials must have determined the defender gave up his ground. But you seem to have the impression that since a player is dribbling backwards he can push his defender into the bleachers without a foul call.

I disagree completely that it is seen and not called in the NCAA. You have no legitimate basis to make that statement.

The NBA? Don't watch it anymore and what you're moaning about is one of the reasons that I don't. That's just me though. It's certainly not representative of the thinking of any other or all amateur officials. Everybody has their own view.

The NBA is entertainment based. Colleges, high schools and international teams play basketball.

If you want examples of backdown plays that are called charges in the NBA, here you go.

Video Rule Book - Home

All Purpose,

Thank you very much for that link. I think it has helped me greatly. Also, I enjoyed the clips on showing a flop and to what Howard was doing backing up.

Thanks again for the link.

Also, weather in Central Florida is starting to get cold. Suppose to be 33 tonight:(

I believe NBA.com or NBA TV has a weekly officiating segment. In this forum you are going to get answers as they pertain to NFHS, NCAA (men's and women's), and FIBA.

We do have one semi-regular contributor who works in the D-League, maybe he will chime in on your question as it pertains to the NBA.

But don't expect to answer why a particular official did or didn't make a particular call in a game you saw on TV. We cannot answer for that official.