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mbyron Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ref2coach (Post 712547)
Would I rather get paid $80 and get some exercise and enjoy being around the game? Yes I would. Is there any sibilance of "independent contract" or free market principle in the "unilateral" nature of TSSAA policies? NO.
This isn't anything close to a unilateral contract. Every contract comes with terms and conditions. If you don't accept those of TSSAA contracts, then don't accept or work the games.

I never understand why people think they have the right to work school contests without complying with the terms of the contract. A free market means that the TSSAA is free to require whatever it wants for its $80 games, and you're free to decline the bargain.

And 'sibilance' is a kind of hiss. You want 'semblance'. ;)

Rich Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ref2coach (Post 712547)
Have you ever heard of a "unilateral contract"? A unilateral contract is where one party has all the power. They are illegal in insurance and some other industries.

TSSAA requires referees belong to a local association, require the schools to use an association to supply referees, assign +/or approve the schools serviced by each association. TSSAA appoints the assigning officer and supervisor of each association.

Any referee who turns down a game that was assigned on an unblocked date in our association has 3 other assignments removed. So no, short of not refereeing High School at all there is no "two parties to a contract" freedom in TN.

In the past a significant portion of an association attempted to start a new association to advocate for better pay and mileage compensation. TSSAA simply refused to sanction their elected assignor and supervisor and reminded the schools that if they used referees from an unsanctioned association that they would have to forfeit their games.

Would I rather get paid $80 and get some exercise and enjoy being around the game? Yes I would. Is there any sibilance of "independent contract" or free market principle in the "unilateral" nature of TSSAA policies? NO.
The policies in TN are, IMO, onerous. As an official you belong to an association (and I believe only one). They alone decide what games you work. The association I was in set all policies like the one where someone who works varsity games is not allowed to take games assigned by the association (and they assign all of them) at other levels.

When I was promoted to varsity ball there, I saw my number of dates drop from 4 a week to 2 a week and even when there were MS dates to fill I could not work them unless they got so desparate that they *had* to fill them. There was no freedom of movement for officials unless you moved to another association, which (of course) had its own problems.

And anyone that knows me knows I don't give a flip about the money. My point is that they pay officials more to work one football game ($85)than 2 varsity basketball games ($80).

ref2coach Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 712559)
This isn't anything close to a unilateral contract. Every contract comes with terms and conditions. If you don't accept those of TSSAA contracts, then don't accept or work the games.

I never understand why people think they have the right to work school contests without complying with the terms of the contract. A free market means that the TSSAA is free to require whatever it wants for its $80 games, and you're free to decline the bargain.

And 'sibilance' is a kind of hiss. You want 'semblance'. ;)
Thanks for the correction of my Homonym error.

A free market means that each party has at least some influence on the terms of the agreement. The B of A is totally populated by School administrators. There is no representation of the referees, the "other" party. TSSAA by sanctioning both the referee associations and the validity of the contests enforce the will of only one party to the contracts.

CMHCoachNRef Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ref2coach (Post 712547)
Have you ever heard of a "unilateral contract"? A unilateral contract is where one party has all the power. They are illegal in insurance and some other industries.

TSSAA requires referees belong to a local association, require the schools to use an association to supply referees, assign +/or approve the schools serviced by each association. TSSAA appoints the assigning officer and supervisor of each association.

Any referee who turns down a game that was assigned on an unblocked date in our association has 3 other assignments removed. So no, short of not refereeing High School at all there is no "two parties to a contract" freedom in TN.

In the past a significant portion of an association attempted to start a new association to advocate for better pay and mileage compensation. TSSAA simply refused to sanction their elected assignor and supervisor and reminded the schools that if they used referees from an unsanctioned association that they would have to forfeit their games.

Would I rather get paid $80 and get some exercise and enjoy being around the game? Yes I would. Is there any semblance of "independent contract" or free market principle in the "unilateral" nature of TSSAA policies? NO.
My point to you is that as long as there are enough officials to take these games -- it does not matter WHY they take the games (hobby, short on cash, love the exercise, etc.) -- $80 will be the number.

At the point when enough officials decide to do MS games, indoor (outdoor) soccer games, etc., the rate will change. It has to change -- unless they want to go to 1-person crews. until then....well, $80 may not seem so bad.

mbyron Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ref2coach (Post 712573)
Thanks for the correction of my Homonym error.

A free market means that each party has at least some influence on the terms of the agreement. The B of A is totally populated by School administrators. There is no representation of the referees, the "other" party. TSSAA by sanctioning both the referee associations and the validity of the contests enforce the will of only one party to the contracts.
You're welcome. ;)

No, it means the absence of force and fraud.

Given what Rich posted, I agree that the situation sounds far from ideal. It's too bad you can't have elections in the association to get better leadership, go on strike, or otherwise act in concert with fellow officials to better the situation.

Oh wait: you can!

ref2coach Thu Jan 06, 2011 01:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 712601)
You're welcome. ;)

No, it means the absence of force and fraud.
TSSAA is using it's "force" IE it's power to sanction and forfeit.

Given what Rich posted, I agree that the situation sounds far from ideal. It's too bad you can't have elections in the association to get better leadership, Nope, No we can not. We used to have elected leadership. They were advocating for the interest of the officials. Last Feb the TSSAA assistant director responsible for Basketball came to our local meeting informed us that our elected board was being disbanded and that only the TSSAA appointed supervisors would control the association. The old board transfered the bank accounts including the ~$55,000 scholarship fund to the control of the appointed supervisors go on strike, or otherwise act in concert with fellow officials to better the situation.

Oh wait: you can!
The attempt to "act in concert" with other officials was attempted in the recent past by a neighboring association. That was the one where TSSAA told them they would not be sanctioned and told the schools using them would result in forfeited games.

The only option would be a strike action. Referees I have come in contact with in general are very "independent" in nature. I foresee no group strike action out of group of people who would allow their elected representation to be disbanded and their money taken. We now have "taxation without representation" paying $85 per year membership fee, $1 per assignment and $175 mandatory TSSAA "camp" every 3 years.

Rich Thu Jan 06, 2011 01:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 712601)
You're welcome. ;)

No, it means the absence of force and fraud.

Given what Rich posted, I agree that the situation sounds far from ideal. It's too bad you can't have elections in the association to get better leadership, go on strike, or otherwise act in concert with fellow officials to better the situation.

Oh wait: you can!
You could, except the TSSAA would probably reallocate those schools to a different association and decertify the group.

Those officials who have never worked in another system -- well, it's better, certainly. You get to work with multiple assignors and get to be responsible for filling your own schedule. One person's opinion of your work doesn't greatly affect your schedule or your advancement.

Rich Thu Jan 06, 2011 01:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ref2coach (Post 712617)
The attempt to "act in concert" with other officials was attempted in the recent past by a neighboring association. That was the one where TSSAA told them they would not be sanctioned and told the schools using them would result in forfeited games.

The only option would be a strike action. Referees I have come in contact with in general are very "independent" in nature. I foresee no group strike action out of group of people who would allow their elected representation to be disbanded and their money taken. We now have "taxation without representation" paying $85 per year membership fee, $1 per assignment and $175 mandatory TSSAA "camp" every 3 years.
Strike action? I tried to organize the officials in an adult baseball league where the umpires were underpaid and overabused. There were just enough people who would crawl over our corpses to take the games that such an action wasn't possible.

Same with anything in this case -- those officials who have been waiting for 5-6 years to break into the varsity ranks would be thrilled to see those spots open up. Look at the handshake nonsense in Massachusetts -- those games got filled, too.

ref2coach Thu Jan 06, 2011 01:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef (Post 712576)
My point to you is that as long as there are enough officials to take these games -- it does not matter WHY they take the games (hobby, short on cash, love the exercise, etc.) -- $80 will be the number.

At the point when enough officials decide to do MS games, indoor (outdoor) soccer games, etc., the rate will change. It has to change -- unless they want to go to 1-person crews. until then....well, $80 may not seem so bad.
Sounds like options but reality intrudes. MS games are also assigned by the approved associations. TSSAA also sanctions high school Soccer. I am a soccer referee also. The other Winter sports provide very little opportunity to break a sweat while refereeing. Wrestling or Bowling anyone. ;)

CMHCoachNRef Thu Jan 06, 2011 01:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ref2coach (Post 712625)
Sounds like options but reality intrudes. MS games are also assigned by the approved associations. TSSAA also sanctions high school Soccer. I am a soccer referee also. The other Winter sports provide very little opportunity to break a sweat while refereeing. Wrestling or Bowling anyone. ;)
I am guessing they don't sanction club soccer. My point is that as long as enough folks are willing to wear a black and white striped shirt and meet the requirements AND are willing to do the games for $80, that is what you will get. I am guessing that soccer referees are more scarce (they certainly are in Ohio). Therefore, even if 10% of the soccer referees decided to do "something/anything" else, then there would be a shortage. With a shortage comes the options of either A) paying more or B) playing games with a less-than-ideal number of officials.

If there are tons of officials relative to the number of games, I would expect the pay to be low. If there are relatively few officials compared to the number of openings, I would expect pay to be higher.

While we may referee largely for fun and fitness, for 95+% of us, the pay is one reason why we do it. Otherwise, you would tell the schools to keep their check. Not many officials do that now, do they? Since money is at least a minor consideration, the law of supply and demand will hold in the long run.

We always have options -- may be bowling, but we do have options.

JRutledge Thu Jan 06, 2011 02:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef (Post 712576)
My point to you is that as long as there are enough officials to take these games -- it does not matter WHY they take the games (hobby, short on cash, love the exercise, etc.) -- $80 will be the number.

At the point when enough officials decide to do MS games, indoor (outdoor) soccer games, etc., the rate will change. It has to change -- unless they want to go to 1-person crews. until then....well, $80 may not seem so bad.
Even if they find officials to work the games, that is different than getting who you want. When I have seen prices change is when the "right officials" decline working any of those games and somehow the fee goes up or changes to everyone's liking. Let's face it, not everyone is judged on the same level and if you get first year guys only working and no veterans things sometimes will change.

Peace

cmhjordan23 Thu Jan 06, 2011 02:10pm
By the end of the basketball season I will have done a little over 100 games.
15 JV games.
27 Adult League games.
The rest are Middle School with a lot games coming during weekend tournaments.

Rich Thu Jan 06, 2011 02:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 712640)
Even if they find officials to work the games, that is different than getting who you want. When I have seen prices change is when the "right officials" decline working any of those games and somehow the fee goes up or changes to everyone's liking. Let's face it, not everyone is judged on the same level and if you get first year guys only working and no veterans things sometimes will change.

Peace
Too many veterans will take whatever is given them. I had one guy tell me he thought we made "enough money" when we got $60 for a 9-inning adult game and that we were "just causing trouble." Too many of these types and no real organized action is possible.

chartrusepengui Thu Jan 06, 2011 02:25pm
We've got one school where I work that has a real smart AD. He raises the fees he pays every year. It may only be $1.00 - $2.50/year but he is not paying far and above anyone else in the area. (this is for sub-varsity games - the conference sets fees for varsity) Other schools have not raised fees for so long that they have had or will have to raise by $15 -$20 just to compete. He's been doing it for about 15 years. I can make as much for a JV game there as most places pay for varsity.

BillyMac Thu Jan 06, 2011 02:30pm
It's Like Stealing ...
 
Warning: To those of you who do not believe that you are getting paid enough. Stop reading this post right now. Move on to another thread.

Thursday is a slow basketball night in Connecticut, so I don't have a high school game tonight. Instead I have a Catholic middle school "varsity" (eighth graders) game. One game. Boys. Site is a ten minute drive from home. No observation for evaluation before, or after, the game. Same partner I worked with last week, so no pregame. I'm required to show up only ten minutes before tipoff. No introductions. No National Anthem. Seven minute periods. Five minute halftime. "Relaxed" mechanics (switch when convienent). Complimentary food, and drink, from concession stand. I'll leave home around 5:40 p.m., and be home by 7:15 p.m., with $54.00 cash in my pocket.

Priceless.

Note to IRS agents who may monitor this website: Keep in mind that in real life, I'm just a sweet transvestite from Transexual, Transylvania. Just try to find me.


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