Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 710950)

Several times a season I'll see a coach change his mind before the player leaves the court. So at what point does the player become bench personnel?

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 710954)

The player became bench personnel when his substitute entered the court, even if nobody knew which player momentarily. I would think, in the OP, signal the T, then, when that player goes to the bench, we would know that it is also an indirect on the coach.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 710956)

I'm not sure I agree (emphasis on "not sure"). If the player becomes bench personnel when his sub enters the court, then the coach can't change his mind at the last second about who's coming out.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 710950)

Several times a season I'll see a coach change his mind before the player leaves the court. So at what point does the player become bench personnel?

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 710955)

You and the scorer try and determine who was being replaced. If the player being replaced got the "T", then he's bench personnel and the head coach gets an indirect "T". If it wasn't the player being replaced who got the "T", then just give that player the "T" with no indirect "T" to the head coach. And if you can't determine without doubt the identity of the player being replaced, then assess the maximum penalty...which includes an indirect "T" given to the head coach.

Use the direction of case book play 3.3.1SitF iow. Close enough for me.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 710955)

You and the scorer try and determine who was being replaced. If the player being replaced got the "T", then he's bench personnel and the head coach gets an indirect "T". If it wasn't the player being replaced who got the "T", then just give that player the "T" with no indirect "T" to the head coach. And if you can't determine without doubt the identity of the player being replaced, then assess the maximum penalty...which includes an indirect "T" given to the head coach.

Use the direction of case book play 3.3.1SitF iow. Close enough for me.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 710961)

Works for me.

Originally Posted by TimTaylor (Post 710962)

Works for me too!

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 710968)

Great. Now let's all sing, "Kumbaya".

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 710839)

Unless the player is actually at the bench (and maybe this one was), how do you KNOW that a player walking in the general direction of the bench is the player that is leaving the game.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 710938)

Cam makes a good point. I assume it was obvious in the OP that the mouthy one was the one for whom the sub came in, but there could be some question; in which case I'd simply go with a player T.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 710983)

'4-34-3
A player becomes bench personnel after his/her substitute becomes a player or after notification of the coach following his/her disqualification.

There's absolutely NOTHING in the rule regarding him going to the bench or being on the bench.



If the coach is smart enough to know the rule (obviously this one wasn't) then he might be able to pull that off.



You don't have to assume anything. Once that replaced player leaves the floor and we now KNOW he was the replaced player, part of the penalty is that it's an indirect and the coach has to sit. Therefore, we don't have to make a determination on whether he's a player going over to talk to the coach or if he's a replaced player until we get to the penalty enforcement.

PENALTY: Shoot 2 FTs, inform the coach he has to sit and award the ball for a throw-in at the division line.




The sub comes in, the player is walking to the bench, is hit with a T, continues to the bench and sits down. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 710984)

If you report the T and indicate that it is an indirect T with the player still on the court, you've possible charged an erroneous indirect.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 710984)

My point, which seems to have gotten twisted was that you can't, with 100% certainty, KNOW who the replaced player is until they get to the bench. Yes, they are actually bench personnel once the sub is beckoned, but you can't know for sure until they get to the bench. If you report the T and indicate that it is an indirect T with the player still on the court, you've possible charged an erroneous indirect.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 710983)

The sub comes in, the player is walking to the bench, is hit with a T, continues to the bench and sits down. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 710991)

There was nothing the OP that said the official called the T, reported it, and informed the coach all before the replaced player reached the bench.

You asked Tim Taylor, "...how do you KNOW that a player walking in the general direction of the bench is the player that is leaving the game."

The OP indicated to us that the T was called on the replaced player. There was nothing in the OP that indicated that the player the T was called in did not go to the bench.

I think that's how Tim Taylor knew the player the T was called on was the replaced player.