Pass that goes in.
 

A a non basketball official buddy of mine called and asked me about this play. Happened in a varsity game the other night.

Kid is at the top of the key and is going to pass the ball to the left wing. The offensive player is behind the 3 point line. The offensive player attempts to pass the ball to the wing and its deflected by the defense who is in front of the 3 points line. Ball goes into the basket off the deflection.

Is it a 2 or 3?

2

It is a case play, I believe. I had a similar play last season.

5.2.1C(b)

A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point arc. The ball is legally touched by B1 who is in the two-point area and then it goes directly through A's basket. Ruling; three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line.

Score 3!

Thanks. I guess they ruled it a 2. I thought it would be a 3, but thats not a play we see everyday!

FED or NCAA (or other)?

I know we've had this discussion here before, and I'm not convinced this rule is meant to apply to all cases.

Situation: A1 (standing at the top-right of the key in the 3 pt area) passes towards A2, cutting through the lane on the opposite side. Just as A2, standing in the paint, is about to catch the ball, B1 runs in and it hits him in the head and goes into the basket.

High School

I wish that it wouldn't, but I think that it does.

I think the NCAA rule is better.

Then you've been given the correct answer (assuming your HS plays by FED rules)

If it is deemed to be a try, then it is 3 points. If it is definitely not a try, then it is 2 points. My play had a pass parallel to the floor into the post that got deflected, changed direction dramatically and went into the basket. The OP sounds similar to my play. My interpreter and my former interpreter both indicated that 2 points was correct in this case. One is Fed & the other is IAABO.

Arms up, Snaq. That's a three.

Had the ball hit a teammate or official in the paint (despite really bad positioning by stripes), then it would be a two. (See 5.2.1 C)

Does not need to be a try in order to count 3. Assuming the antecedent of "him" above is B1, your play is a 3-point bucket, since it is not ruled out by the exclusions under 5-2-1.

5-2-1:

"A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball
that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal
from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown."

This is why I love this forum.:)

I didn't say it needed to be a try.

Sitch 2: A1 shoots a three point shot, but it falls short and is an air ball. A2 and B2 attempt to get the rebound, but B2 outjumps A2 and is able to tip it and it goes in.

Sitch 3: A1, from the corner (3 pt area), passes an alley oop pass towards A

2. However, the pass sails over A2's hands and the basket. After going over the basket it hits B2 in the a) hands or b) head and bounces into the basket.

Y'all giving three for both of these?

As I understand the rule, Yes. But I hope it never comes up and I don't have to. :D

Wasn't it just a few years ago that an interp was around that it required a try to count as three? Of course that would have been before the more recent case play.

Reading the rule, I don't know how you could award anything else.

We've been round and round on this before and there is a difference of opinion.

Many (perhaps most) feel the "thrown ball" rule is written with the assumption that the ball is thrown toward the area of the basket....and that a deflection that redirects the ball to the basket is no longer a "thrown ball"....particularly a deflection on a ball that is not going above the rim or is on its way down. The purpose of this rule is NOT to turn a wild deflection into 3 points but to take the judgement out of the case where a ball, as released, may or may not have been a try but goes directly into the basket....and that a brush (not a redirection) by a defender doesn't change the status of the thrown ball.

Well said, Camron, thanks.

That is a lot to read in to rule 5-2-1.

I agree the rule was written to take the judgement out. Taking the position above is adding a lot of judgement back in.

IMO, 5-2-1 and 5.2.1C(b) in the case book gives us only one choice. Count it as 3.

If you go back to when it was changed and the reason it was changed, it is not so hard to come to that conclusion.

There is another case play (someone else can look it up) that has a thrown ball (try) that bounces off a defender's head and into the basket. The ball was thrown from behind the 3-point arc. The ruling in that case play is that it counts for 2 points. Why? At the point in time where the "try" is over (certain it will not be successful, below the rim, hits the floor, etc.) the thrown ball can no longer score for 3 points....any subsequent deflection is a NEW action. So, a thrown ball that can not possibly go in as released is not subject to being 3-points.

The judgement removed is in the intent of the thrower, not whether the "try" has ended or not. The former requires the reading of a mind. The latter only requires the observation of physical facts.

Agree. The difference is that the thrown ball is deflected up by the defender. If it comes down through the basket, it's considered as a 3-point try. If the same deflected pass comes down short though, as soon as it falls below the rim it is no longer considered as being a try. Hence the confusion. The original question in the OP was referring to the start of the play. Snaqs was talking about a possible end of that play instead.

The difference is that, prior to the deflection, the ball had NO chance of going in. The direction of the deflection doesn't matter. In fact, I'd bet that all deflections where this could even be considered would be deflections in the upward direction.

Agreed. A1 throws an alley oop pass from outside the arc. If untouched, the ball would have hit the board just above and two feet to the left of the rim. Before A2 can get to it, the ball, while on its downward flight, is deflected by B1 into the basket.

2 points

I get what you guys are saying and it makes sense to me logically but it definitely doesn't jive with the rule (not the first time for sure). I'll look for that Case Play that Camron references. If one of you comes across it, please post it here.

The case play is 4.41.4 Situation B.

A1's three-point try is short and bleow ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a)A2; or (b)B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. Ruling: the three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

3. No different than the case play.

Nope. 3. No different than the case play. Both interpreters are wrong.

26 year gap did.

2. The try ended when it was apparent it wouldn't score.

2. As Jurassic stated, once it's fallen below the basket, it's a 2.

Now I am conflicted! I hate when this happens.

This case play showed up somewhere between 03-04 and 07-08. 5.2.1C was in the books in 2003. This leads me to believe the Fed wanted to make a point as described by Snaqs/Camron and anyone else who supported that thought. Why else would they add it after 5.2.1C already existed?

Similar to what my "chops bustin'" friend has been known to say, I guess ol' Scratch is full of shiz nit. I am re-thinking this one!

The case play is 4.41.4 Situation B.

Rules = dashes, case plays = dots.

Yeah, caught that right after I posted, edited shortly after <_<

So if it was a try, it only counts as 2; but if it's a pass, it's 3? Either way it's a ball thrown from behind the arc.

On the 2nd one, it never hits A2's hands.

It sure seems that way. If there's clearly a try for three, and it falls below the rim, then the try for three is done, hence the two points.

However, if there never was a try for three, then it can't end, and any defensive deflection of a offense's ball from beyond the arc will still count as three.

I tend to think it would cut both ways, though. If A-1 is in the lane, and attempts a pass to A-2 in the corner, but it's blocked hard into the basket by B-3, who is next to A-2 and outside the arc, I would say that's a two-pointer. Again, it's where the offense releases the ball, right?

If it's a try, the try is over when it's apparent it won't score. So it's NOT a try. It's just a B player that knocked the ball into A's basket.

And yes, I missed that it didn't hit the hands and changed that.

not true

The only way to reconcile the two cases is to accept that it is based not on the intent of the original throw but on the trajectory of the ball as it leaves the original thrower's hands. If it leaves the thrower's hand on a path towards the basket, count it for 3 if it goes in. Once it is not heading towards the basket, it can no longer be a 3.

What Camron said.

If it's got a chance to go in, treat it as a try. If it doesn't have a chance to go in or if the try has ended under NFHS R4-41-4, treat it as a loose ball. Rule accordingly in both cases.

And quit thinking so damn much.....:D

I just don't know what to do with BktBallRef and Jurassic Referee disagreeing? My head might explode.

Where did we disagree? :confused:

He said a try is over if when it's apparent that it won't score. That's what 4-41-4 says also.

Methinks BktBallRef, Camron and myself are saying the same thing but maybe with different semantics.

When he suggested this play: is a three. Maybe I didn't describe it well, but that pass never had a chance to go in.

Ah...

I didn't even read that one. Agree. That ain't a 3 by rule as per the reason cited above by you.

I can't see the logic in this, TH. You're giving conflicting statements above imo. As in highlighted in red #2 above, the ball has fallen below the basket in both cases where you say they should be 3's. In both of those cases the ball did not have a chance to go in either before the touching below the ring. That's why they both should be ruled 2's.

Disagree.

Here's Snaq's play.

Situation: A1 (standing at the top-right of the key in the 3 pt area) passes towards A2, cutting through the lane on the opposite side. Just as A2, standing in the paint, is about to catch the ball, B1 runs in and it hits him in the head and goes into the basket.

There is no logic and no difference in the case play. And according to the case play, it's a 3.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

While it's nice to think trajectory has something to do with it, the rule and case play don't support it.

Then how do they support the understanding that try is somehow different? 4.41.4B has no rule justification; it's still a thrown ball. But we're supposed to give the offense 3 points if it's a pass but 2 if it's a try?

New sitch:
A1, standing in the three point area at the wing, attempts a bounce pass to A2 at the top of the key. Just as he releases the pass, B2 comes running down the court between A1 and A2 (he was late) and the ball hits his knee before hitting the floor, and flies into the hoop.

Reach for the sky.

Misty Water Colored Memories Of The Way We Were ...
 

It used to a long time ago. If we thought it was a pass, rather than a shot, from behind the three point line, and the ball went in the hoop, then only two points were scored. We were really good mind readers back then.

Decide what to call it while explaining Coach B that it does count because it was not a kicked ball.

trying to put thoughts into words
 

I've been trying to reconcile these two case plays all night. Here is my latest version.

5.2.1C

A ball that is thrown into a teams own goal from behind the three-point arc scores three points. So a ball that is thrown by A1 into A1's goal from behind the three point-arc scores three points regardless of being legally touched by a B player inside or outside A's three-point arc. It is the result of an action started by A1 and ending by going through A's basket.



4.41.4B

Since the try has ended and team control does not exist, any touch by B1 would now be considered a tap, try, throw or action started by B1. By rule, a three-point goal can only be scored at a teams own goal. So B1 can't score a three-point goal at A's basket. As opposed to 5.2.1C where the action is clearly a thrown ball (still in TC) by A1.


5.2.1D

This case play has a throw-in by team A being touched at the FT line and then goes directly through A's basket. Again no team control so any touch by B, whether inside or outside A's three-point arc would result in two points. The throw in ends and B cannot score a three-point goal in A's basket. My thoughts are that if A1 deflected the throw-in and was outside the three-point arc, it would score three points for A.

I am having a hard time putting my thoughts into words on this one. I hope I have described it coherently. :o

And I can't place trajectory as having anything to do with it.

Two entirely different situations.

The 3 point try is attempted. Team control has ended. The try is missed. It's now a rebound as the try has ENDED.

A pass is made from behind the 3 point line. Team control still exists. The ball hits B1 and goes in the basket. Yes, by rule and case play, that is a 3.

Here, we call that a kicked ball. :)

Play 1.
A1 passes to A2 – from top of key to wing area, outside 3pt line.

Play 2
A1 throws ball to the basket from outside the 3pt line, ball is short of Rim and falls below Rim

In Play 2, if B3 hits the ball after it is below the Rim, we have a case play that says it is only worth two points as the try has ended.

In both plays the thrown balls do not have a chance to go in, therefore they are not considered a try (or the try has ended).

How does play 1 differ from play 2?

In play 1 if B3 hits the ball below the rim and it goes into the basket, why would you award 3pts?

Because A1 started an action (throwing the ball from outside the 3-point arc) that ended with the live ball (still in team A's control) going through A's basket.

So how is that different then the case play (play 2)? That was a live ball that started from outside the 3pt line and went into the basket. We award 2pts for this play.

Play 1 is the result of A's throwing action. Play 2 is the result of B3's action.

No team control during a shot. The shot is given the opportunity to end. When it ends, the ball has no "ownership" (can't think of a better word) and the next action started is the touch by B3.

B3 cannot score a three-point goal in A's basket. No matter B3's location. If B3 got the rebound, ran out beyond A's 3-point arc and threw the ball into A's basket, it would still be 2 points. The two actions by B3 described here are treated the same by rule.

What you have stated is defined as a try in the rule book.

Disagree. The definition of a try specifies intent: A try.....is an attempt....to score........

The thrown ball could obviously be a pass attempt.

So....from outside the 3pt line.

A pass from A1 to A2 - that does not have a chance to go in, deflects off B3 into the basket - we award 3pts.

A try by A1 - that does not have a chance to go in (try ends), defects off B3 into the basket - we award 2pts.

_____
A1 lobs ball into A2 post play - not a try - as the ball does not have a chance to go in (5 feet short), B2 jumps to deflect the ball and it goes in. Since this was a pass, 3pts.

A1 lobs ball into A2 post play, possible try as the ball still has a chance to go in, seeing the ball is less then 1 ft short - I deemed it to be a try. As the ball falls below the rim, B2 jumps to deflect the ball and it goes in. Since I "thought" this was a try, only 2pts.

If you meant that A1's action in all 4 sitchs started beyond the 3-point arc, I agree with your rulings.

In your last sitch, you "judged" it to be a try. So you rule on it as a try.

How convenient for you. You decide to leave out a bunch of words. Let me do that, too. :)

"A try is...throwing the ball...to a team's own basket."


A pass attempt is to a teammate.

He said, "A1 throws ball to the basket from outside the 3pt line,..."

The basket is NOT a teammate.