Attacking ref: "Part of the game"
 

Many of you have seen the video of the DeSoto HS player attcking the ref.

Follow up from local news. Player is sorry but says his actions were "part of the game." OMG! He needs a reality check.


Desoto County High basketball player apologizes

Wow! I really hope they pursue felony charges on him, maybe then he will realize this wasn't "Part of the game."

Not only that....
 

But he also says "he had it taken away from him", meaning the game he loves. It was taken from him. He threw it away!

I didn't hear him say that? :confused: What time in the video did he say that?

Edit: Heard it now...not sure what he meant by that statement.

I love the part about 'the game being taken away from me'. I don't think this kid has any idea about his responsibilty for his actions.

He is a high school kid, do you expect him to know everything he means at this point of his life? I certainly don't. Which is why he should not have been giving an interview to the media. on this incident. His comments can be used against him in a criminal proceeding.

Peace

Yes, I understand that...which is why I'm not all up in arms about the fact that he said it. I, too, am surprised that he was allowed to give anything more than a generic apology to the press.

I don't disagree to an extent, Rut. But I'd like to think well before 18 years old I knew that throwing an official to the floor was definitely not part of the game.

Then you have missed my point. The point I am saying is a kid that age usually is not prepared to talk in front of people and put their thoughts together. There are adults that cannot do that when they are put on the spot, case in point my class where everyone had to give a presentation in front of classmates. Which is why he should not been giving and interview to the media about this situation. And we are trying to dissect his comments as if there was some real deep meaning based on what he said. What he knows or does not know is not my concern. He should not be giving an interview and his parents/guardian should have stepped in. Someone that is an adult that knows the kid should have stepped in. He said several things that show his age.

Peace

The kid still doesn't get it. "...part of the game", "...taken away from me...".

You have to question who is around this kid guiding him. Why would anyone...parent, coach, whoever...allow him in front of a camera and put himself deeper in a hole? I think this is going to end badly for him. Maybe rightfully so, but someone should step in and explain to him how bad he screwed up. I don't think he has a clue.

He'll get a clue when the guilty verdict comes in at court and he is sentenced to some time in jail. After all, being punished for actions such as this is just "part of the game."

Exactly. He had no coaching about the situation prior to talking to the reporter.

But for the most part, the US of A is very forgiving, and the kid will play basketball again somewhere. Though if I was a coach in that area, I wouldn't take him.

My first thought was why is this kid granting an interview, and they have him posing.... dribbling a ball. Parents? School? Coach? Mentor? No wonder he's in trouble, seems like a rudderless ship.

It is my guess that he hasn't 'lawyered up' yet. I can't see any competent defense attorney letting him talk to the media. We must remember that this "kid" is an ADULT, at least according to the law. Everything changed when he turned 18. His maturity level is another matter.

Since this is an open forum I will give my opinion too...

After listening to the interview, for ME, I have a less negative opinion of the young man. Listening to Holland he doesn't in my opinion (as stated before) appear to be this thoughtless, mean spirited, thug, and bully that society should fear and consequently lock away forever.

I am not an attorney so I can't say if this interview seriously hurt him in the upcoming legal issues he will probably face but for some this interview shed a different light than the one the world has seen constantly on You Tube and most news stations.

I've heard my colleagues focus on 2 comments he made about his actions "being part of the game" and that the game “was taken away”. But also realize the young man said He felt like he let everybody down by his actions, that he wants to apologize to the official, and what happened on the court “wasn’t acceptable” and wants to apologize to everyone.

As officials it’s ok to be angry at someone who brings harm to us or a fellow official. The Question is how many of us can eventually forgive?

(Stealing Rut’s quote) :cool:
Peace

I'm all about 2nd chances, however, the statement "...taken away from me...". tells me that he is in the anger stage of remorse.

I am not angry with him nor do I feel that I am in a position to forgive him for anything. I do believe that actions have consequences and that he should face the appropriate punishment as it seems he will.

Quite frankly, I see his statements as a "yabut"...perhaps that's just me.

He may get a guilty verdict but I doubt on the charges - something will be worked out - but I'd be surprised if he gets prison time (unless he already has a history).

Some sort of community service, and if he stays clean for a year or two his record probably gets expunged.

Right: he acts out and then thinks that by apologizing he should suffer no consequences. That's the breeding ground of irresponsibility and bad behavior.

And I find it troubling that an official doesn't see the connection between actions and consequences.

I think you are very accurate here. It's early on in this process, but I, too, think it will be dealt down, perhaps to a misdemeanor (unless the official changes his mind about not wanting to ruin him) with community service. I don't know about the expunging - I don't think the SAO would want to agree to that considering everything. That said, anything could happen in our court system.

I concur. This kid made a very bad choice for which he's rightfully paying the price, but he's no monster.

It's always smart to consider what motivates people to do the things they do, especially the wrong choices. In that second, the kid didn't see a referee. He was a kid who got mad at someone else who, in his eyes, took away something he loved, and he instinctively fought for what he loved.

This kid probably identifies himself primarily, if not entirely, with basketball. He took the disqualification personally -- the worst thing any of us can do -- and the reaction speaks for itself.

As for "part of the game," I guess we can say this kid isn't articulate, either. I believe what he meant was that his competitive fire was still burning, and he felt that fire as he took it out on the guy that tossed him.

Mind you, all of this condones nothing. It may explain some of it, though.

I know how this will be received
I don't care about intent (in the video)
I don't condone what happened
I don't believe in coincidence

Why hasn't anyone mentioned how the trail official did NOT do what he got paid for?
The officials left hand went out at the same time the player's mid section moved back. Did the official push the kid away? Is another angle of the video circulating around the internet?

Ok...I'll bite.

Exactly what do you think the T should have/could have done in this situation?

No way do I buy that the C pushed the kid as you are implying. The kid stepped back and then bent forward with arms spread "pleading" his case. I think we have all seen that exact same posture from teenagers who feel they have been somehow mistreated and feel the need to state their case. I know I have seen it thousands of times as a teacher!

I wondered the same thing.
I see that posture all the time from airmen.

I think the official was trying to get by the player and the player got in his face. Yes, did they make some contact? Yes they did, but I do not think it was caused by the official. It think it was caused by the player. This is why I feel we should T kids for these actions more often instead of just letting it go. Players think they can come in our space all the time and then when something happens we are put in the spotlight when we do something about it. I do not fault the official at all. I fault the kid and most of the time nothing happens. I have run into kids accidentally before and none have acted like that.

Peace

Oh...are you one of the ones my A1C son refers to as "non-ers"???:p

+1- same as Rocky...whatinthehell did the trail not do that he was supposed to do? :confused:

I also don't believe what you think you saw actually happened. JMO obviously.

Good point imo, Jeff, and relevant to all situations- not just this one. There's never a good reason for a player to get in any official's face, no matter how badly we screw up.

I have no idea, so probably. :D

Only one person is in a position to consider whether he wants to forgive him or not...that's the official he assualted.

Ask yourself this. Is he contrite and apologetic because he's remorseful for what he did or because he can no longer play basketball and is facing possible felony assault charges?

I lean toward the latter.

WTH does that mean?

You want him to jump in between two 6'7" eighteen year olds or do you want him to tackle the 6'7" teenager who's already thrown a larger man to the floor?

I've always been told to never, ever place my hands on a student-athlete.

No excuse for it, but it is being taken away from him
 

When this kid lost his head and did this, he essentially forfeited all control of his immediate basketball future. Yes, the punisment is and will be from the direct result of his own actions, but he no longer controls whether he can particpate or not and rightfully so. That has been taken away from him.

Semantics? Maybe, but to say that the game hasn't been taken away from him implies not just that his actions are the reason why (this part is true), but that he refuses to show remourse and take responsibility.

I think he should be not allowed to play HS sports a minimum of 1 year. If he's a senior, oh well, too bad. Then he should be sentenced to 1 year community service to be served as a youth league (Rec ball) referee. That may help him get a clue.

Hey, I knew my comments wouldn't be received well. I think Rut is the only one (so far) to see it rationally and I have no problem with his response. I was just wondering why nobody mentioned it.

As far as what the trail did NOT do? Are you guys serious? What else did the trail have to look at other than two kids who were pushing each other? The C called what the trail failed to call. That is all I'm saying and...hold on let me look at it for the 100th time...yep, the trail has a count and either looks right past this match-up to the ball or ignores it. There were three players...hold on let me look at it for the 101st time...yep, three players in the backcourt so the C really should have been focusing elsewhere.

The kid was dead wrong for what he did, BUT there are other things to consider in this video.

What are you doing to your Airmen? I didn't see that posture and I dealt with more Airmen in a day than most people do their whole career (MTL).

Sigh. :rolleyes: Exactly as I figured. You need to go back and look at it for the 102nd time but this time get somebody to watch it with you that can explain some officiating basics to you. Neither the trail or the center was out of position when the initial contact and first foul occurred. The initial contact near the endline after the free throw was on the other side of the lane with the defender directly inside the white player and also in a direct line with the trail. The trail was completely straight-lined, which is very common from that position right after a free throw when the players start upcourt. Because he is straightlined, there is nowayinhell the trail can ever see who initiates any contact between those 2 players. That's why the C has to keep an eye on that play while he's releasing upcourt. He has to get crap like this because the trail can't. The C is the only one who can possibly see the separation and what's going on. In this situation, the C did exactly what he was supposed to do. The trail didn't miss a damn thing because there is nowayinhell any official in the world could ever make a call in that situation without guessing.

The bottom line is that the officials as a team caught the first foul and the succeeding fouls. When they do that, they should never be second-guessed like this imo. But that's just me.

Yup, as I said that's exactly what I expected from you, Tom. 'Nuff said.

That's my opinion and I really don't care if you don't receive it well.

Have to agree with JR about the straight-lined business...also - how do you know that the T wasn't just about to crack hiswhistle, but the C beat him to it?

Oh, that's right - you don't know that.


Oh well...

Ha! He works at Hill AFB now - was at Osan. He's on a 3-man loading team working on the F-16's, mid-shift.. "Non-ers" is the flight line guys names for all the 8:00-5:00 guys!:D

The trail is responsible for the ball and the count. He picks up the player with the ball as he receives the throw-in and begins the count. The foul by the thrower. The C gets the foul as he should, stays with the play and gets the T.

Gotta love you camp types that think everything has to be done one specific way. Back on my Ignore list for you.

"All the time" may have been overkill, but I've seen it. It's simply a pleading posture. I do see it regularly on the basketball court. I'm convinced there's a class on this posture offered to NBA players.

And your statement that Rut was the only one who responded reationally implies, indirectly, that rocky and I were somehow irrational. Now I'm curious to find out which part of our responses you felt fell short of reason.

The Trail should NOT have been stacked on this play. That is his match-up to officiate period dot. *sigh*, here we go with those who "just want to get it right". It was a non-basketball play so anyone should get it anywhere. However, the Trail does have a responsibility on this play to officiate SOMETHING. I guess some are suggesting it is normal for two officials to watch three players - one with the ball and two others - all the time. I don't think so, but according to some (JR) I need some help. Humorous since JR and Tony will take their ball and go away if people don't agree with everything or almost everything they say. Unlike some, I don't officiate from my keyboard nor do I advance based on years of service in an organization.

I do have to apologize to Snaqs and Rocky for implying their responses were not rational. Snaqs pointed that out and that was wrong - must be the rational Air Force way of thinking on his part.

There may or may not have been areas in this play for the trail to improve his positioning, but no one is saying you should always have 2 officials watching 3 players in the backcourt. In fact, they are saying the C should stay and watch the play as he transitions to the frontcourt. IOW, hang back and make sure the T doesn't miss anything.

The T is stacked for a second or two, but it's an unfortunately timed second.

But, to bring it up in this context comes across as implying that you think the T could have somehow prevented all this. By what? Making the same call the C made, only a split second sooner? I don't think you were trying to imply that, but the inference isn't difficult to make.

The C should not let 7 players go down the court and stay with three players and the Trail. What if two of the other players start pushing each other? The Lead is supposed to watch 7 players? The trail official is not stacked on this play. He was not in the best position, but he was not "completely straight-lined." To be "completely straight-lined" he would have had to have been at the three-point line if he kept going in the same path he was going.
The Trail is NOT completely stacked. Also, maybe it would help if he used his outside hand to chop the clock. Then, when players - three players - take a path on the opposite side of the court he should make at least an attempt to come on the court as opposed to staying near the sideline. His first step is straight up the court even though his competitive match-up is on the other side of the lane. If his first step would have been in the direction of his competitive match-up he would have had a better angle to see all three players - the players he is responsible for at the time.

The C NEVER takes his eyes off the ball leaving the new Lead with 7 players. The largest pack of players - the group the C should move down the court with - are not in his field of vision because his eyes are glued to the ball. If this action would have occurred with two players on the opposite side from where it happened the new Lead would have to have eyes on 7 players or nobody would get it. If the C had his eyes on the pack of players, the Trail would have still had his eyes where they were - this is normal 3-person officiating. It is not normal for two officials to watch 3 players come up the court when there is no press on.

I'm not sure what you expected from me. I don't officiate where you (wherever you are) or Tony are. If I did I'm confident I would have success because I kind of know what I'm doing. :D Both your opinions only matter in a "Kingdom" you have created. If you are the one who criticized someone for being on Facebook you are no different. In fact it is worse when you want to go unquestioned in a social environment based on your post count or status as a crabby old man. Sounds like a high school group of friends to me. What I expect from you is for your behavior to continue unless you have several people disagree with you. If that happens you (and others in your "group") will simply go away. When the ball goes up, your social status doesn't matter one bit; the game matters.

So you are speaking for "they" now? I have a few questions for you:

Is it normal for 2 officials to watch 3 players come up the court without pressure or not?
What keys (rules of thumb or whatever) should the C use to transition up the court?
Should the Trail take a straight path up the court regardless of where players are?

Serious answer?

No, it's not normal. But it is normal for the C to step down on the free throw, hang a second, and take a look at the matchups before heading to the frontcourt to officiate the other seven players since it takes a few seconds for those players to get down there and even contemplate trouble. And in this situation, seeing the jousting going on in the backcourt, I'm doing exactly what the C did there -- hanging back and keeping an eye on those players. The C's mechanics here, IMO, are impeccable.

Without the immediate jousting and shoving? I'm heading downcourt where the rest of the players are.

It's easy to blame the T for not being involved in this process, but it could simply be a quicker whistle by the C, who didn't have a ball matchup to worry about as well. Since I still work a fair amount of 2-person, I won't absolve the T -- in a 2-person game, he'd better get that.

Nah, I don't speak for "they". I have a hard enough time speaking for me.

I was, however, speaking to the way I read JR (one of "they") when he wrote the following.

He said nothing about "all the time," as you noted in your response.

As for your follow up questions: I'm not questioning whether there may or may not have been room for improvement for the trail. I'm not addressing it because I don't think it matters in this context. It wouldn't have had any impact on the results; other than the fact that the T would have been the one getting mauled if he'd called the foul.

I would also question the harshness with which you brought it up. If you were speaking directly to him while watching film, would you have worded it that way, "You failed to do what you're getting to do."

To add to this:

I take back what I said about the mechanics being impeccable -- the C should've had the previous foul that set up the free throws -- instead the L called across the lane. It seems that the C was standing in quicksand there instead of stepping down a few steps to pick up that baseline drive. It didn't appear that the L even closed down or even contemplated rotating there. It seemed there was enough time for the L to rotate if he was ready to do so. Instead he seemed to be planted in one spot.

Also, the positioning of the C on the free throws should've been further on the court (there's no way he can step down and see a violation across the lane on the sideline).

That said, I have no problem with the C holding on a second and assessing the backcourt situation before heading downcourt. No comment on the trail, but it did seem as though he did a lot of standing around when that first whistle blew. I would've liked to have seen some aggressive closing down on that shoving match from more than just the C.

Regardless, there's no blame to be put on the officials here. The officials didn't assault themselves. And the calls made by the C were certainly correct, including the technical and ejection that preceded the assault.

Rich, what is normal (for me) is to be aware of press versus no pressure. Once the C makes this determination, he or she moves up the court with the largest pack of players because he or she may have to make a call from sideline to sideline that the Trail or Lead cannot see.

Snaq, what exactly does it mean to "release upcourt"? I know I move in transition based on how many players are in the backcourt and where the largest group of players are. Without pressure and the largest group of players moving up court I would not lock on the ball like the C did in this play.

Nobody can say with certainty what would have happened if the Trail called the first foul so nobody can say it wouldn't have had an impact on the results.

Do officials realize we can always say "...has to get crap like this because the ... can't"? Fill in the blanks for any official and any spot on the court. This is one of the (fortunately) few times doing this helped...coincidentally, these plays seem to always involve watching the ball.

Hmm, I'm not sure how I would tell the official, but please don't confuse face to face conversation with typed words on an internet forum. Communication on here is similar to emails and I'm sure you get enough at home and work to know the delivery is often misunderstood.

I agree with you on this. I was just pointing out some other things I noticed in this video. I knew how some would receive what I typed - even what you just said may be considered wrong by some since your opinion isn't saying that the official did everything right.

I'll say this, for me as C, I would have probably done as this guy did; hanging back and watching the tussle as I drift towards the division line. Right about the time he makes the call is when I'd turn my head and head down court (assuuming there's nothing going on).

It seems to me you're suggesting the C should have turned his head and sprinted downcourt as soon as he noted there was no press. I disagree with that (if it's what you're saying).

Fair enough, but if you were evaluating him and emailing him the results, would you have worded it that way? The limitations of email/written communication usually mean we should be more careful, not less. Although I should point out that I recognize my own failing in this regard.

Unless you think the player had an issue with the C personally, I can say with pretty strong certainty it wouldn't have mattered.

Blah, Blah, Blah
 

Way too mechanical and in depth for me, quite sure someone may be over-complicating the krap outa this in an egocentric attempt to win an argument. :eek:

You guys know as well or better than me, these physical skirmishes tend to begin much earlier than when they explode. Players start jawing, getting "chippy," maybe a little extra hands on or pushing that is borderline incidental or intent. My point is that probably there was a good reason that the C had eyes exclusively on the three close to the T. Plus, did he? Looks to me like the back of the C's head is facing the camera

JR, nobody can tell where the C's eyes are! I suppose you can guess where he's looking by the direction of his head, but then you say things like, "never took his eyes off...," and you don't know that. Your argument is in part based on an assumption you can't prove. Eye balls can and do move side to side within their sockets! It's just as reasonable to speculate that the C just quickly scanned to his right and noticed that there was space between the 7 who just ran past him, then moved his eye balls back to the left, observed the activity and "TWEEET!" Because he was anticipating it. Because it really began 5 possessions earlier.

Finally JR, you make a big deal outa the L having to observe 7 players if the C is watching the ball. Correct mechanics for a 3 man crew aside, if this was a 2 man crew, wouldn't the L be watching 7 players? Isn't it something you've done a gazzilion times?

Then there's the stacked question. I seriously don't believe that a referee has to be 100% in line and stacked on an exact straight line in order to have his vision blocked. Just being close to on exact straight line may be enough to obscure a players arms even though most of the torso is visible, and the arms are what does the pushing.

As a coach, whether I was the HC or the VC, I'd just be pleased that it was whistled no matter who did it. Don't care and really does not matter. I also believe there's no way that the T doesn't tweet if he has vision of the initial pushing, indicating 100% stacked or not, he couldn't see it. That's a way more reasonable assumption than to think you know where the C's eyes are looking.

Sheesh

1) Nope, some want to break down the play rationally without first looking for a reason to back-stab a fellow official. Any reason. First! Neither official was out of position. You can't officiate what you can't see. And what you can't see has to be picked up by your fellow official(s). And that's exactly what happened on this play. Do I think you need some help? Naw, you need a clue imo. You just don't have the knowledge to break down a play like this. Add that to the fact that you're always looking to find a screw-up by the guys...any screw-up...no matter the circumstances...and you get your typical Tomegun post.

2) Tom, what you say is meaningless to me. Not only do you not know what you think you know about the intricacies of basketball officiating, you invariably look for any reason you can find to crap on one of your fellow officials. You're famous for that. I honestly don't know whether you think crapping on someone else is going to make you look good, but it doesn't work that way. You whine incessantly about politics, not getting games, your association (no matter where you live) doing things wrong, etc. Sorry podner, but you just don't have the credibility for me to get that upset about anything you say.

And btw, you advanced to what? Assigning crappy summer AAU ball? Call me when you've done a few state finals like Tony, or a D2 national womens final four like Rocky.

"2)Humorous since JR and Tony will take their ball and go away if people don't agree with everything or almost everything they say. Unlike some, I don't officiate from my keyboard nor do I advance based on years of service in an organization."

No Tom, I'm right here and have been for over 10 years. You're on my Ignore List because of you egotistical BS and campboy attitudes. No idea what officiating from your keyboard means or how many years someone has been in an organization has to do with anything. I guess it's supposed to be some kind of half-a$$ insult. I've only been a member of my local association for 12 years but have been selected by the state association to work numerous state, regional, and sectional championships, so that kinda shoots your half-a$$ insult out the window.

Please guys, stop quoting this prick so I don't have to see his garbage.

Whatintheheck are you talking about? :confused:

1) The bottom line is that the C's eyes were on the initial contact. He made the foul call. Obviously he saw what was happening. What do I care about eyeballs? I try to go by exactly what happened. See the foul; call the foul. It's that simple. Coach, I'm honestly not sure what point you're trying to make here, but I do agree that the C certainly may have looked off the play first to check out possible contact from the other players as they were transitioning through his area before going back to the throw-in. But overall really, that's meaningless.

2) Now you really have me confused. Afaik I've haven't posted anything so far in this thread that had anything to do with the Lead or coverage of the other 7 players. I can't find anywhere where I've even referenced them. Can you point me to where you think I did that?

3) We agree. :)

Are you sure you aren't confusing me with Tomegun (:eek:) and maybe a post of his like #42?

My point from the git-go.

Hold up...were debating mechanics relative to this situation?? Really?!?

Thank you

Honestly, you have me confused with someone else. You want to give me your number to call you? I started officiating (2 years in Arizona). I had no business doing anything more than what I got. I then moved to Las Vegas - I have worked a state final (championship) in Nevada. I moved to the DC area - I worked one Catholic finals and two semi-finals in three seasons. I moved to Mississippi and worked there for three seasons - I think I worked 2 or 3 state finals (championship) games. Is that a few state finals? I also worked college ball at all three places (JC, NAIA, DII, and on a D1 roster). Snaqs or BNR can tell you how it is as a serviceman to move around and start from scratch every few years. IMO, Rocky consistently comes from a different/more credible position than you and Tony so I give him respect for his POV, his accomplishments and the fact that he doesn't always agree with you.

Yes, I talk about politics because politics are a part of officiating like they are a part of other things in life. In my experience moving around you overcome politics by being good. I'm not sure when you have heard me whine about getting games; I have worked plenty every place I have been. You must have me confused again. I guess several assigners have been wrong according to you and Tony.

I do assign "crappy" AAU ball, but that is not the only position I hold in my city; I'm the instructional chair. In our current system, I currently assign high school basketball. Again, I guess I'm fooling a lot of people according to you.

I guess I'm a realist and that is what you call me crapping on someone else. I could give you a long list of great officials from all across the country. Officials that I think the world of. You are focusing in on my opinion of one official (the supervisor of officials for the NCAA must have agreed with me).

Sir, I don't hardly do this thing from my keyboard; I know a little about what I say. You go back a few posts and you will see that I can apologize to someone if I say or do something out of line. Can you say the same or has everything you have said in your thousands of posts always been right? Why did you and Tony - among other people - go silent for a long stretch? Is isn't like Chuck (someone I know who is more than a keyboard official) who left for good reason.

So we are calling names now? I always wonder about the ignore list. When some people aren't like you, or say something you don't agree with you just don't want to see it. Interesting.

He is famous for that. He thinks he is a moderator on this site too. ;)

Peace

Nope, I seen too many of your back-stabbing, whiny complaining posts over the years to ever confuse you with anybody else, or somebody that I respected as an official either. And this thread is just more proof of that. And as you said in one of your posts, I don't believe in coincidences either. I knew that if anyone showed up to inject some implications into this thread that it might somehow have been the officials' fault, it would be you. You're notorious for doing that. And sure enough, here comes Tomegun questioning both the C and T's actions, implying they both could have done something different or better. What you don't post though is what the guys maybe could have done better or done differently that maybe might have avoided the unfortunate altercation. As usual, absoutely nothing constructive or helpful came from you...just the usual inference that this clusterf**k was somehow the officials' fault.

Honestly, I'd be afraid to turn my back on you if I ever had you as a partner.

Jmo Tom. I know you really don't respect that either. So I doubt either of us is going to be losing any sleep over this one.

I'm happy to look at the officials' mechanics and see where they could be better.

But there's a limit to that. There's nothing, NOTHING in this video that suggests to me that these guys could've done anything to prevent this. Trying to do so would be blaming the victim(s), IMO.

So tomegun, just to clear things up here...

Are you saying that there are things we, as officials, can learn from this horrible situation that will help us improve in our avocation?

Or are you saying this mess was somehow the officials' fault - especially the T?

If you are saying the first - I would agree with you wholeheartedly. But if you are even remotely thinking the second, then you really are "crapping" on a fellow official.

Honestly, I think tomegun has made it clear he's not saying the officials bear any fault at all in this. He's said it multiple times in fact.

I do, however, think this is an inappropriate video to start picking apart such miniscule details as whether or not the C should have hung back as long as he did.

The first one without a doubt. The kid was dead wrong and he will hopefully get what is coming to him. Thank you for asking a question and allowing me to answer. Contrary to popular belief, I'm on the side of the officials. I just look at almost every play as a learning opportunity.

+1

Glad we cleared that up!:p

While I would love to have seen the T have a whistle on this original shove/contact, the C hanging around to help out with the pressure on the throw-in is OK and something that I do and pre-game with my partners. Especially if there have been any "shenanigans" earlier in the game.

Would a double-whistle have averted the assault? I really don't think so - it just seems like the kid was primed for something and went after someone. If it's a double whistle, maybe he goes after the T instead, but what difference does that make?

So I don't really have any big issue with the way the crew handled this.

Tom, I'm answering from Pg3 so I may be repeating what someone else already said.

First, I agree the Trail should have had better eyes on this play. But that's where our agreements end.

When I'm the C on a made free throw I'm not releasing until the ball is inbounded. The initial shoving that occurred happened immediately after the throw-in and easily within the peripheral of the C's eyesight. And when the initial shoving occurred there were at least 5 players still in the backcourt, maybe even 6. So the C was properly covering the court on this play, IMO.

Also, there is no way the C pushed the player. The player jumped back as a reaction the Technical call.

Now, as far as you blaming the officials for what happened, :rolleyes: I missed those posts. Maybe someone could quote one of those posts for me since I can't find them.

I didn't, but you know how some people are.

Nope, the closest you came was saying you didn't know whether things would have been different had they done things as you suggest.

As far as I'm concerned, that's not very close to it even if I disagree.

I didn't read all of this thread, but we usualy use "C with the second-to-last defender" or "C with the last 2/3 of the pack"

Hope everyone is doing well, happy Holidays,
The act by that young man is un-acceptable and hopefully gets what he diserves. At my last association meeting last week, It was 100% in agreement, there was nothing that fellow official had done to have that player react that way. Totally horific behavior by that player. The sad part is that I'm seeing more and more act of violence off the court as well not only from players but fans. I did a Varsity boys game last year that we had to have sheriffs escort us to our vehicles. I love officiating very much but this is getting ridiculous..