Throw-in ... Step Over Line

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson

Hmmmm not sure i agree. Oooo what the heck, I disagree.

Bart -- that's no way to start a fight! What kind of a ref are you anyway!? Show some teeth, get offended! It's good practice for throwing your weight around on the court during the season!

[Bart Tyson]

Hmmm your correct. Ummmm Richard, your definitely mistaken. There, I guess i told him.

[AK ref SE]

Andy-

I understand your point of view. But show me in the rulebook, under the rules where it specifically states that a foul or no foul should be called on the interpretation of advantage/disadvantage. In the rule book contact is a foul, unless we consider it incidental contact.....so is all contact not called incidental or are we using the advantage/disadvantage philosophy? Just my point of view.
I do appreciate your posts....it has gotten the wheels turning for another season.

AK ref SE

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by AK ref SE
Andy-

I understand your point of view. But show me in the rulebook, under the rules where it specifically states that a foul or no foul should be called on the interpretation of advantage/disadvantage. In the rule book contact is a foul, unless we consider it incidental contact.....so is all contact not called incidental or are we using the advantage/disadvantage philosophy? Just my point of view.
I do appreciate your posts....it has gotten the wheels turning for another season.

AK ref SE

The way I read it, incidental contact is that which does not cause an advantage. Take a look at 4-27-2 and 4-27-3.

[AK ref SE]

Mark-
I understand incidental contact the way the rule book states it. The point that Andy made about: You cannot apply advantage/disadvantage when a violation occurs. Advantage/disadvantage applies to fouls only.

I did not agree....I do not see where Advantage/disadvantage is stated in the rulebook to apply just to fouls.

AK ref SE

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by AK ref SE
Mark-
I understand incidental contact the way the rule book states it. The point that Andy made about: You cannot apply advantage/disadvantage when a violation occurs. Advantage/disadvantage applies to fouls only.

I did not agree....I do not see where Advantage/disadvantage is stated in the rulebook to apply just to fouls.

AK ref SE

As I stated before I went to the NCAA Meeting in Chicago on Sunday. We were told in that arena (may not apply to most, but some might hold the philosophy) to not call palming or carrying the ball unless they are blowing by an opponent. We were also told not to call travelling on spin moves unless it is really obvious. Marcy Weston (Supervisor of Women's Officials) told us that, "these most of the time are violations by rule, but do not call them unless everyone in the gym see there is a violation." Of course I am paraphrasing her statements, but that is the gist of what she said.

I realize this is not the NF Interpretation or what many might think should not apply to HS level ball, but that is what might filter down to the HS level. I can guess that similar things were told to the Men's Officials, but this was stated as "how the game is suppose to look like."

Peace

[AK ref SE]

Rut-
I agree with your post.

My opinion Advantage/Disadvantage can be applied to violations or fouls, or a guess a better way of putting it. Making a call or not making the call.

AK ref SE

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by AK ref SE
Rut-
I agree with your post.

My opinion Advantage/Disadvantage can be applied to violations or fouls, or a guess a better way of putting it. Making a call or not making the call.

AK ref SE

I just wanted to make clear that there is a philosophy coming from the higher levels. And it was made very clear that this was the way things are suppose to be. And Marcy Weston and Barbra Jacobs both signed off on this philosophy and told us that coaches would be informed of this philosophy. Also the NF Basketball Rules Editor is Mary Struckoff (a D1 Women's Officials and loved by many Illinois Officials ) there might conceivably see interpretations that might support the NCAA's philosophy. We will see if that is the case but time will tell.

Peace

[theboys]

Hey, Rut, did anyone raised their hand and ask, "Do you realize how much more crap we're going to get from howler..., I mean, coaches, with this philosophy?"

Because, basically, the philosophy means I, as a coach, can read the rule and case books (okay, stop laughing), and I still won't understand why the referee is T'ing me up for howling about the opponent who consistently travels/palms/carries.

I mean, seriously, if I have enough sense to ask a referee in a nice, non-threatening manner (well, some coach might) if so-and-so is palming when he makes such-and-such move, what will be the response? "Coach, we were told by the national governing body not to make that call unless the player uses the action to get by your player."

I'm really not trying to give the refs on this site a hard time. It just seems like points-of-emphasis like this make your job harder.

I guess its a lot like speeding. In most states, you won't get stopped unless you are speeding excessively.

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by theboys

I guess its a lot like speeding. In most states, you won't get stopped unless you are speeding excessively.

Great analogy

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by theboys
Hey, Rut, did anyone raised their hand and ask, "Do you realize how much more crap we're going to get from howler..., I mean, coaches, with this philosophy?"

Well there is a reason for no one asking. Coaches are much smarter and seasoned then most HS coaches. I personally have never heard a college coach b!tch the same way a HS coach does. Part of that reason is because being a college coach is a "real" job. This is all they do. They have to know the rules or be intelligent enough to realize when to complain and not to complain. Unless you are a Jim Keedy (Purdue Coach, I might have spelled his name wrong.) or Bobby Knight, you might not be complaining about a whole lot. And I know that Bobby K gets a bad reputation in places like here, but Officials that have done games with them have the upmost respect for him. And usually the stories that they tell of an encounter with Knight is very minimal and short. Most coaches are not going to be huffing and puffing over a carry call. And if they do they are only going to make a big issue at certain times in the game.

Peace

[JRutledge]

The Officiating Coordinators have meetings with the coaches and tell them what the officials will be doing and way. There will be a NCAA Meeting with coaches that will help clear up any confusion before the season.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by theboys
Hey, Rut, did anyone raised their hand and ask, "Do you realize how much more crap we're going to get from howler..., I mean, coaches, with this philosophy?"

Because, basically, the philosophy means I, as a coach, can read the rule and case books (okay, stop laughing), and I still won't understand why the referee is T'ing me up for howling about the opponent who consistently travels/palms/carries.

I mean, seriously, if I have enough sense to ask a referee in a nice, non-threatening manner (well, some coach might) if so-and-so is palming when he makes such-and-such move, what will be the response? "Coach, we were told by the national governing body not to make that call unless the player uses the action to get by your player."

I'm really not trying to give the refs on this site a hard time. It just seems like points-of-emphasis like this make your job harder.

I guess its a lot like speeding. In most states, you won't get stopped unless you are speeding excessively.

You are right, the POE's and various "philosophies" do make
it tough sometimes. But in your example, the smart ref will
not blame some national governing body for not calling a
palm. He'll say so-and-so isn't palming (if he's a good
liar) or he'll say thanks coach I'll watch for it (if he's
a good diplomat and a good liar) or he'll say OK coach and
blow the whistle the next time so-and-so touches the ball.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by JRutledge
And I know that Bobby K gets a bad reputation in places like here, but Officials that have done games with them have the upmost respect for him.

Yeah, and I know the "upmost" place they'd like to plant a good swift kick

Chuck

[rainmaker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

I just wanted to make clear that there is a philosophy coming from the higher levels. And it was made very clear that this was the way things are suppose to be. And Marcy Weston and Barbra Jacobs both signed off on this philosophy and told us that coaches would be informed of this philosophy. Also the NF Basketball Rules Editor is Mary Struckoff (a D1 Women's Officials and loved by many Illinois Officials ) there might conceivably see interpretations that might support the NCAA's philosophy. We will see if that is the case but time will tell.

Peace

As is said repeatedly on this board, call it the way your assignor wants it called. When you work for Marcy Weston, I mean, when I work for Marcy Weston, I'll call it her way. While I'm working for Howard Mayo, I'll call it his way. Others who read Jeff's post should keep in mind that different areas do things different ways. Just because Jeff was told at his college women's meeting to do it one way, does not mean that everyone else in the country should do that. Coaches around here really don't like the explanation that this is how the big kids do it -- especially after they have gone out of their way to discuss it with the assignor, and drill their players on legal maneuvers.