Game Over
 

Game ends and officials get a thumbs up from the scorekeeper.

Scoreboard reads 62-60 in favor of the home team.

Officials in dressing area - going on five minutes - when game management comes in and says "I think we have a problem."

Apparently both books (I know home book is official) had the score 63-60 in favor of the guests.

Is that the final outcome? Or is it what it is when the officials left the floor? What if it the books had discovered it had been tied after regulation? You don't go back out for OT, do you?

The guests win 63-60.

The home book is the official book. NFHS rule 2-11-11. The official book can't be changed after all officials leave the visual confines of the playing area. NFHS rule 2-2-4.

Rules rulz. And if the home team or league doesn't think so, let them sort it out.

Howinthehell could the table let the scoreboard get so far outa whack?

And if the home book had the score tied ... What?

2.2.4 SITUATION C:

Team B leads by a point with seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. A1 releases the ball on a try, but the noise level makes it difficult for the covering official (umpire) to hear the horn. The umpire signals a successful goal. The referee definitely hears the horn before A1 releases the ball, but does not realize the umpire counted the goal. The officials leave the visual confines of the playing area and are not aware of the controversy until the scorer comes to the officials' dressing room. RULING: Even though the referee could have canceled the score if the officials had conferred before leaving, once the officials leave the visual confines of the playing area, the final score is official and no change can be made. In situations such as this, it is imperative that officials communicate with each other and that they do not leave until any problem regarding scoring or timing has been resolved.

And
If the discrepancy is in the score and the mistake is not resolved, the referee shall accept the progressive team totals of the official scorebook. A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score.

You ask the scorekeeper just exactly whatinthehell he was doing giving you the thumbs-up. Then you go back out, write all the circumstances down on the score sheet and then play an overtime.

And I gotta say that if chseagle had been named National Supreme Head Scoring Table Chairman like the masses wanted, this never would have happened. Nope, not under his stewardship. Heads would have rolled! Rolled, I tell ya! I blame Obama.

That's not what Johnny is asking. He wants to know what to do if the scoreboard has 62-60, the officials run off the court, then the table realizes that the running score has 60-60. For that you refer to JR's post above.

I was responding to this in the original post.."Officials in dressing area - going on five minutes - when game management comes in and says "I think we have a problem."

Apparently both books (I know home book is official) had the score 63-60 in favor of the guests.

Is that the final outcome? Or is it what it is when the officials left the floor? " I guess my point is that the scoreboard score is not the official score. Visitors (guests) win 63-60.

This may not be "best practice", but when I'm R (especially in sub-varsity games where the scorekeeping is somewhat spotty) I ask at the end of each period if the books agree on running score and fouls and that the scoreboard is agrees (not that they have to, but it helps prevent arguments). At the beginning of the 4th period (or a stoppage of play in the 4th period) I let the home scorekeeper know to give me the thumbs up if everything's ok at the end of the game.

Not sure if any of that would have helped, or if you did that and there was still the foul up, but thought I'd put it out there for consideration.

63-60 Visitors IS "what it is when the officials left the floor."

Steam coming out my ears!
 

This is very simple-Score in the books when officials leave the floor stands.If it is tied play overtime-I agree that a notation on the scorebook and report to your local assignor is also in order.I would be incredibly embarrassed if I was the scoreboard operator and home scorekeeper.Apparently neither of them has the concept of communicating to make sure the board and books match.It is completely unacceptable to be 1 pt off of what the books have let alone 5. If I were AD of the host school both these staffers would be relieved of their duties for some time and possibly permanently.
It also begs the question:Were these students or adults running this table? For the most part schools here (private) use adults in every table position (scorekeeper,scoreboard/game clock operator,shot clock operator).The schools that do use students do a pretty good job for the most part and we rarely have issues with their job performance(usually it comes with the shot clock-did team control exist or not? that sort of thing).CIF-SS,our sanctioning body,requires all table personnel during postseason competition to be adults.Here coaches jump all over us if we give points to the wrong side even when we are in the process of changing it.

I'm wishing we had a similar regulation here, however we do not.

In The 2009-2011 NFHS Basketball Officials Manual, it states:

"4.0.2 Selection of Scorer and Timer:
A. Adults: A high school student or one of last year’s graduates will have the interest and enthusiasm but may lack poise, impartiality and judgment.
B. Experience: Choose someone who has had some playing, coaching or officiating experience.
C. Faculty: If faculty men or women are available for these jobs, they usually do the best work, although it is not a guarantee.
D. Reliable: Choose men or women who can and will be present at every home game. It may be an honor to act as timer or scorer, but it’s not an honor that should be passed around with each game.
E. Good Judgment: Above all, choose someone with plenty of poise, good judgment, a sense of impartiality and one who you are sure will be able to forget the score and concentrate instead on the job."

Why don't all state & local associations enforce this? I realize that it's just recommendations, however can't officials (through their local associations) ask that these be followed?

Why is this only listed in the officials' manual & not anywhere else?

+1

Where else would you have this recommendation be? :confused:

Also, you generally have a table that fits all those criteria for varsity games. It's rare that a table isn't component at that level. Anything below that, it's a matter of JUST having someone to do all that...whether qualified or not. There's just simply not enough qualified people who are willing to do a freshmen B girls game.

In the appendix of the rules book as well.

Sure most sub-varsity contests not all the rules are strictly enforced, but why is that?

Concerning having qualified people do table for all levels, it could be done if those selected to do table didn't care about Varsity only.

The person we have do Varsity timing can easily do the JV game before, however she never shows up to the gym until the 4th quarter of the JV game in Gym 1 or she is assisting the concession stand. Apparently she gets paid only to do the Varsity games & so has no interest to assist with the other games.

You won't find many associations that will mandate adults for sub-varsity because..well its sub-varsity. While the games are important to those playing the game, it's still not as important as varsity in the grand scheme of things.

I guess if you wanted to get more adults to do the lower level games, you could make sure they get paid for those games. Even still, some people wouldn't want to do it. You can place restrictions like mandating someone do two games, but when that pool of those that want to be at the table is small as it is, placing restrictions doesn't help. Plus paying an adult for the sub-varsity as well would be an additional cost that schools would have to pay. And I don't know about you, but I'd rather have 3 officials for varsity than have that money go to having an adult for a sub-varsity game.

Chseagle,
You have to realize that at a lot of schools people serve in multiple roles.

For instance at our school:
*The timer and shot clock operator work all 4 games in a night (JV Girls,JV Boys,Varsity Girls,Varsity Boys-in order).

*I handle the score keeping duties for both varsity teams in addition to serving as JV girls statistician.For the JV Boys game I prep for my varsity games while serving as visiting team/official host.

*Additionally I report our girls scores to the appropriate media outlets and record the statistics to Maxpreps.com along with putting out a league-wide update.

PM me and I'll give you some recommendations with regards to making sure both gyms are staffed with qualified personnel regardless of level.

The only time I have gotten paid to do Varsity was at 3A/4A Regionals. The one Varsity game I did last year as timer at CHS I was volunteer. All the time I do shot clock for Varsity, I'm volunteer.

I've been out of high school for 10 years, & could really care less if I was getting paid or not. I do it as a service to the school/community.

Others unfortunately only care about lining their pockets :(

The only pay anyone working table should get is free admission & free snacks from the concession stand, nothing more. As far as I'm concerned the only ones that should be getting paid are the floor officials since they have to go through all the training & certification to be there.

NFHS Rule 2-4-3: Designate the official scorebook and official scorer prior to the scheduled starting time of the game.

Not always will the home book be the official book. The R can designate the visitor book as the official book.

Concerning the scoreboard showing completely different from the scorebooks, there was no communication between them.

It's just like those who say, "We need good officials to work the JV games" but the truth is that those who work varsity games typically are working varsity games and on the nights they're not, they're enjoying a night off.

Totally agree!

Yeah, more often than not, Varsity level officials only work Varsity games. Although there are still a few out there that work both Sub-V & V.

The constitution? Or at least the Federalist Papers.

You'll Find It In The Bible, So You'll Know It's True ...
 

The Gospel of chseagle, Chapter 4, Verses 1-2.

I thought it was the Gospel of Jurassic, Chapter 1, verses 19-21? :eek::rolleyes:

Thanks for the idea of writing a book about table operations, now I just need to find some co-Authors.

I'll Co-Author however we'd still need a few officials to assist with rules citations & game situations.

Although I'm in the process of becoming an official.

Just this year alone I've seen my fair share of bad scorers, & have even had to coach them while working as timer. :eek::rolleyes::D

Yeah I realize I rarely am on here, I like observing more than anything.

What if they reproduce??

Not that way here. You're expected to work games at any level assigned. Refuse too many and you may find yourself losing future assignments.

It's not for a lack of trying.

If/when that happens, that just means one less person for table operations.

Chseagle,
Count me in as a co-author if you ever decide to write a manual on table operations!

What about the two available instruction sheets on the NFHS site, one for the timer, and one for the scorekeeper? I've carried copies with me for years, and use them to train officials so they will know what to review with the table crew during their meeting at the table, pre-game.
At an officials camp, years ago, one ot the evaluators had the nature of stopping one or the other official and asking: "Without looking at the scoreboard, what's the score? How much time is left? What's the foul count? Which team scored last? What kind of score was it - 2, 3, or free throw? Who gets the next AP?"
It's part of our work to be aware of those elements during the game, and especially in a close score.
Also, I get the first name of the three members of our table crew, at the beginning of the game. It really helps to address them by name, and seems to help them feel the importance they have to be part of our crew for the night.
Near the end of a close game, I may check with them several times to be sure that everything matches in the two books, and with the scoreboard. We all know that the R has to approve the final score, and to me, that task implies that I've been aware, and reviewing it's progress throughout the contest.

I will volunteer my talents to act as your literary agents. I smell a best seller...

Put me down for the movie rights.

The only question now is who do we sign to play chseagle?

Is Benny from LA Law still around?

Too bad Don Knotts is no longer of this earth...

How about Jim Carrey?

Dustin Hoffman in a reprise as Raymond Babbitt?

Actually I was thinking of Steve Austin. He could pull out his taser and give the bad guys a stone-cold stunner.

It all started as an infant when Kal-El was rocketed to Earth by his father Jor-El to escape the disintegration of Krypton, and landed in a corn field in Kansas. Changing his name to chseagle, he was raised....

It's true, it's true....

Rob you're talking about "Instructions To & Duties of Scorers & Timers for Basketball Games".

Yes those are helpful reference/resource materials, however I haven't seen anyone (except for myself) have them with them during games :(

Concerning the checking with the table to verify the scorebooks match, I have seen some officials that come over & check during every intermission or TO.

What would really help those doing table operations would be to have everyone do as it states in the Officials Manual:

4.0.3 Training the Table Officials:
A. Preseason: Before the opening of the season, provide the table officials with a rules book, case book & other basketball rules material available through the state office. This should be done regardless of the number of years they may have served in this capacity. There are frequent rules changes that affect the tasks of these officials. It might be well to mark or otherwise call attention to those sections of the rules that directly or indirectly refer to their duties. Insist on a careful study of the “Instructions to
the Scorer” & “Instructions to the Timer.”
B. Rules Meetings: Insist that your timer and scorer attend one of the state-sponsored rules interpretation meetings &, if possible, an occasional
meeting of a local officials’ group.
C. Practice Games: Before the first game, arrange for several intrasquad scrimmages conducted under actual game conditions with your timer & scorer at the bench. Plan to set up unusual situations involving timing & scoring. Check carefully on the work done in these scrimmages & make comments and criticisms.
D. Observe & Evaluate: Observe the work of these officials during games & make suggestions for improvement.
E. Crew Respect: See that your timer & scorer are accorded the same courtesy & respect as that due the floor officials. Their work is important, &
it should be done with dignity & pride in good performance.

Unfortunately I haven't seen much of what is listed being done. I have attended some of the local meetings & that has helped me out to have better understanding of the rules, & thanks to them was able to get a 2010-2011 Rules Book.

Instructions to and duties of the scorer
 

RULES COVERAGE:
Rule 2-4-3: The referee designates the official scorebook and the official
scorer.
Rule 2-11: The duties and responsibilities of the official scorer are indicated.
In case of doubt, signal the floor official as soon as conditions
permit to verify the official’s decision.
The rules committee strongly recommends that only the official scorer
wear a black-and-white striped garment and the official scorer and
timer be seated next to each other. The scorer’s location at the scorer’s
and timer’s table must be clearly marked with an “x.”
RESPONSIBILITY:
The scorer’s responsibility is so great that floor officials must establish
the closest cooperation and understanding with them. The scorer must
be accurate.
EQUIPMENT:
Scorebook, pencils, possession arrow and signaling device with sound
different from that of the timer. The scorebook must be available for
inspection at the table from 10 minutes prior to game time until the
referee has approved the final score.
BEFORE THE GAME:
1. Ten minutes before scheduled game time, the scorer shall be supplied
with each team’s roster and numbers.
2. Ten minutes before scheduled game starting time, the scorer shall
be supplied with the starting lineup.
3. Notify the referee if either list is not submitted on time or is altered
after time specified.
4. If there are discrepancies, notify the referee before the ball is
tossed.
5. Have coach sign that lineup is correct.
DURING INTERMISSIONS:
1. Either the official scorer or a delegated assistant must be at the
scorer’s table with the official scorebook at all times.
2. Verify the lineup after all intermissions and notify either floor
official if a player, who has not reported, has entered the court.
DURING THE COURSE OF THE GAME:
1. The nonofficial scorers should check each entry with the official
scorebook.
2. The scorers should:
a. Announce to each other and record the total running score.
b. Announce the name and number of the player who scores.
c. Verify the scoreboard score.
d. Compare the summary of individual scores with the total
running score at the end of each half.
e. Exchange the name and number of the player committing a
foul and indicate the total fouls charged to the player.
f. Be responsible for the alternating-possession arrow.
g. Record warnings reported by an official.
3. In case of controversy, the record of the official scorebook is
accepted unless the referee has knowledge which permits him or
her to rule otherwise.
SCORING: (Use the following recommended symbols)
1. P for personal foul, followed by proper numeral indicating number
of personal fouls charged to player as P1, P2, etc., or cross out
appropriate number.
2. T for technical foul (direct or indirect on coach).
3. Successful field goal: figure 2 or 3.
4. Free-throw attempt:
5. Successful free throw:
6. Two or three free throws awarded:
7. First of one-and-one:
First made, bonus awarded:
Bonus free throw made:
8. Record thenumberof charged time-outs (who/when)for each team.
9. Check the scoreboard often and have the progressive team totals
available at all times. Points scored in the wrong basket are never
credited to a player, but are credited to the team in a footnote.
Points awarded for basket interference or goaltending by the
defense are credited to the shooter. When a live ball goes in the
basket, the last player who touched the ball causes it to go there.
NOTIFY THE NEARER OFFICIAL WHEN:
1. The bonus penalty is in effect for the seventh, eighth and ninth
team foul in each half. The bonus display indicates a second free
throw is awarded for all common fouls (other than player-control)
if the first free throw is successful. The proper bonus panel, such
as (H for home and V for visitor) shall be displayed after the
penalty for the sixth team foul has been administered. Another
method is to activate a light or device nearest the basket of the
team which is to receive the bonus.
2. The tenth team foul occurs each half. Thereafter, the bonus
(second free throw) is awarded for a common foul (except playercontrol)
whether or not the first is successful.
3. Any player is charged with his or her fifth foul (personal or tech -
nical), the second technical foul is charged to any team member,
bench personnel, directly to the head coach, or the third technical
foul is charged to the head coach.
4. Either team has been granted its allotted charged time-outs or an
excess time-out.
5. The ball is dead or in control of offending players team if:
a. Player has not reported.
b. Player’s number changed.
c. Player is illegally in game.
6. The ball is dead, if there is a score dispute or doubt about an
official’s decision.
7. Any player enters while wearing an illegal number.
8. The ball is dead and the clock is stopped or running, if the coach
requests that a correctable error as in 2-10, or a timing, scoring
or alternating-possession mistake be prevented or rectified.
SUBSTITUTIONS:
1. A substitution may be made when the ball is dead and time is out.
A player who has been withdrawn may not re-enter before the
next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started
properly following the player’s replacement.
2. A substitute who is entitled and ready to enter must report to the
official scorer. However, substitutions between halves shall be
made to the official scorer by the substitute(s) or a team representative
prior to the 15-second warning.
3. Following a time-out or intermission, the substitute must report
or be in a position to report prior to the warning signal.
4. A substitute may enter the court only when beckoned and must
do so at once.
5. If a substitute reports to enter for a designated jumper or free
thrower, the substitute may not enter until the next dead ball and
time is out.
6. A substitute may not be beckoned, if multiple free throws are
awarded, until the last throw is to be attempted or the final throw
is successful (unless a player has been directed to leave the game
by an official).
7. A substitute may replace a designated starter in case of illness or
injury or to attempt a technical-foul free throw.
It is not permissible for a substitute to replace a designated jumper, or
a free thrower when the free throw is for a personal foul, unless such
jumper or free thrower is disqualified or injured. The scorer should not
signal after the free thrower or thrower has been handed the ball or the
ball is at the disposal of such player or team or until the official has
completed reporting a foul.

Instructions to and duties of the timer
 

RULES COVERAGE:
Rule 2-4-2: The referee shall designate the official timepiece and its
operator.
Rule 2-12: Duties and responsibilities of the timer are indicated. An
efficient timer will carefully study these sections and become thoroughly
familiar with all their aspects. The timer shall sound a warning
signal 15 seconds before the expiration of an intermission, a time-out
(60- or 30-second) and the 20-second interval to replace a disqualified,
injured or player directed to leave the game. The timer shall also signal
when the time has expired for an intermission, a charged time-out or a
replacement interval.
EQUIPMENT:
Electric clock timer and one stopwatch, or a table-clock timer and one
or two stopwatches. A gong, loud siren or electric air horn to signal the
end of playing time. When present, a red/LED light is permitted to end
a quarter or extra period; otherwise, the audible signal ends the quarter
or extra period.
BEFORE THE GAME:
1. The official timer should ascertain the game starting time and
suggest that the referee and coaches synchronize their watches.
2. Review the official signals for starting the clock, time-out, a foul
or violation.
3. Notify the scorer 10 minutes prior to the starting time.
TIMING REGULATIONS:
1. Playing time shall be:
a. For teens of high school age — four quarters of eight minutes
each with intermissions of one minute after the first and third
quarters and 10 minutes between halves. Halftime may be
extended to a maximum of 15 minutes upon proper notification.
b. For teams younger than in (a) — four quarters of six minutes
each with intermissions same as for (a).
2. Overtime Play:
a. If the score is tied at the end of the second half, play shall
continue without change of baskets for one or more extra
periods, with a one-minute intermission before each.
b. The length of each extra period shall be four minutes (or half
the time of a regulation quarter for non-varsity contests).
c. As many such extra periods as are needed to break the tie shall
be played. Game ends, if, at end of any extra period, the score
is not tied.
d. Extra periods are an extension of the fourth quarter.
3. A time-out charged to a team is of either 60-seconds or 30-second
duration unless both teams are ready to resume play sooner.
4. No time-out is charged to a team when:
a. The floor official grants a player’s request because of displaced
eyeglasses or lens.
b. A correctable error as in 2-10, or a timing, scoring or alternating
possession mistake has been prevented or rectified.
5. The sounding of the scorer’s signal or game horn does not cause
the game timepiece to be stopped.
START THE OFFICIAL TIMEPIECE WHEN:
1. A tossed ball is legally tapped when play is started by a jump.
2. The ball touches a player on the court during a throw-in (if clock
has been stopped).
3. An official signals “start the clock.” If he or she neglects to do so,
the official timepiece should be started unless an official specifically
signals that it should not be started.
4. The ball touches or is touched by a player on the court provided
the ball is to remain live if the free throw is missed. In these cases,
the official will give the start-the-clock signal, but if he or she
neglects to do so, the official timepiece should be started when it
is apparent the ball touches a player and is to remain live.
STOP THE OFFICIAL TIMEPIECE WHEN:
1. Any period ends.
2. An official gives a time-out signal. The official will order time-out
when:
a. A foul is called by holding hand with fingers closed at arm’s
length above head.
b. A jump/held ball is declared by giving the jump-ball signal
(holding thumbs up at shoulder height away from body and
motioning upward with both arms extended).
c. A violation occurs by giving the time-out signal (holding hand
with fingers extended at arm’s length above head) after which
the proper violation signal is given.
d. There is to be a charged time-out, or an official’s time-out for a
technical foul, or other stoppage indicated by a floor official
who holds a hand at arm’s length above the head with fingers
extended.
NEAR THE END OF PLAYING TIME:
1. If a watch is being used as the official timepiece, place it so that
the timer may see it and the ball. The watch must be stopped the
instant the signal ending the game is sounded.
2. When a timing device other than a watch is the official timepiece,
the timer must assist in determining the position of the ball when
time expires.
3. Some timers, in order to avoid misunderstanding concerning the
position of the ball when time expires, have one person watch the
official timepiece and count aloud 10 - 9 - 8 - 7, etc., while another
person watches the ball and notes its position at the exact
moment time expires.
4. If a quarter or extra period ends and:
a. The timer has been unable to make an official hear the signal,
the timer must immediately notify the official.
b. The timing signal fails or is not heard by an official, the timer
must be prepared to advise the referee as to whether the ball
was in flight when time expired, or whether a foul occurred
before or after the period had ended.
c. The timing signal is not heard by the officials, testimony of the
timer may determine whether a score shall count or a foul shall
be charged, unless the referee has information which would
alter the situation.

Thank you for copying and pasting all that Billy...I think? :confused:

+1, I think. Do we really need to have that stuff posted here?

Just Say The Word And They're Gone ...
 

I can delete them if you wish. I thought that those who were unfamiliar with these instructions would like to peruse them.

SoCal & I don't need them posted.

I have a copy with me during games, so I'm set.