What would you do?
 

HS game:

I at the C position. White 23 drives the lane in my PCA. I am referring the defense. Blue 11 has a legal guarding position and gets plowed over. I blow my whistle and look across the key and the 'L' has a whistle. I make eye contact with him and wait. The game is at stand still. I waited about a second (so it seems). I call the charge. White coach is upset, yada yada yada.

At half time, as soon as we get in the locker room, that same official gets in my face telling me that I was out of position, it was his primary, and I didn't even look at him. I said I waited to see what you had. He said that he had a foul on the arm. I told him that blue 11 had legal guarding position. AT that time he calls me a liar.

What would you do now?

The biggest issue is that your partner called you a liar. :eek:

I would review PCAs with the crew and double whistles.

Exactly!!! That was the issue!!! Earlier in the game I had two double whistles with the other official in the game (3 man). No issue with him. This official that called me a liar caused a lot of tension in the locker room.

Work a two man crew since I would lay him out if he got in my face :mad:

Just joking. Actually, I would ask him to calm down and let's talk about this like professionals. If he refused to do so, I would ignore him and request not to be assigned with him in the future.

I go with Robby. Lay him out, hide him in the locker room some where. And go out there and work a 2 man. If anyone asks, he's battling a stomach bug and is in the locker room recovering.

there are a couple of issues here, IMHO:

1) the C should not have a whistle on block/charge plays going to the basket. these plays should be called by the Lead...because the Lead has the best view of where the defender came from, when he got there, and if he established LGP (remember, the defender that takes the charge is not the primary-on-ball-defender...it's the defender coming over from the help-side...the Lead is the only official with a good view on this play).

When C blows the whistle, your situation is what typicalls happens: both C and L have a whistle and both stand there waiting for the other to take the call. Usually one of two things happens: you have a blarge (which we'd like to avoid - but if it happens, so what - just administer it by rule and move on) or each official looks like they don't know what to call (when really they each know what to call there just not sure who should call it). In either scenario - it's not the best outcome...

2) the half-time comments. simly turn to your 3rd partner and say: "well, looks like you and I will have to work hard in the second half, because anyone who can't tell when someone is looking at him and uses the "liar, liar, pants on fire" defense is a terrible official and shouldn't be working this game"....:D

that otta take care of the situation!

Crews that I work with generally give this play to the C. The protocol is that if a shooter starts in your PCA, you take them all the way in. This type of play normally ends across the paint from the lead, techinically out of his/her area. It's ok to have a double whistle in this scenario, but from my understanding, it's the C's call. YMMV.

If he caught the ball around the elbow area of your primary ("C") and drove to the lane you were right by blowing the whistle. Lead should have a slow whistle if anything, knowing it came from your primary.

I don't agree with jeffpea

Glad you contributed that comment as that is the protocol in the area where I work.

Where I come from...we pre-game this to be the L's call IF it is a secondary defender in the L's primary.

I second this :)

Regarding your first point....Maybe I'm misunderstanding the scenario, but if there was a crash between the dribbler and the primary defender, and that crash happened in C's primary, lead has no business getting it. That can only lead to trouble. If the crash was in the paint and/or it was between the ball handler and a secondary defender, then lead should have first crack. C should have a whistle and withhold a signal.

Simple - call my buddy Guido. Nuff said. :cool:

Even if it is coming from C's primary and L is across the paint?

The alternative would be...C takes first crack at contact involving both primary and secondary defenders? The C has to see two whole plays? At the same time? Based on your pseudonym, I'll assume that you are capable of doing that consistently. ;)

But to this earth-bound mortal it makes more sense that while the C is focused on the primary defender, watching that whole play, the L picks up any secondary defender and can see that whole play. Of course, it would be better if he pinched the paint on this.

Count me as one who disagrees with this as well. In our area the general rule is that as the C or T you take a play that starts in your primary all the way to the basket. Yes, the L will most likely be responsible for the secondary defender BUT the OP does not mention if it was a secondary or primary defender.

Also, there are instances where the secondary defender comes from the C's area if the play comes from the T side to the C's side of the paint and before the L has come over.

Either way, I completely disagree with a blanket statement that the C should not have a call on block/charges going to the basket or that the help side defender is always the one who takes, or attempts to take, the charge.

+1 with emphasis on including this in your pre-game

since this is a discussion board...I'll ask a question for discussion: let's assume we ALL know that a good official referees the defense.... "When at C and a drive to the basket starts in your area, what defender are you looking at?"

The primary defender. We all get that...and we all get that if a secondary defender comes across, the L should have the whistle on that.

But that's not what you said in your first post...you flat-out said that the C should NEVER have a whistle on block/charge going to the basket. And that is incorrect.

But in this scenario the OP said he was ref'n the defense and the play was in his PCA. Maybe it was a zone defense and no one was on W23 when he started his drive.

sometimes officials "see" things that just are there...obviously, based on rockyroad's last post - we can now say that sometimes officials "read" things that just aren't there...

I did not use the word NEVER. My exact words were: "the C should not have a whistle on block/charge plays going to the basket"....while anyone can try to parse what that means...we all can agree that "NEVER" did not appear, correct?

the defender that we are all looking at is the on-ball defender (the one who is getting beat on the drive to the basket). the defender who is involved in the block/charge play (99.9% of the time) is the weak-side defender coming across the lane. it is extremely difficult for the C to officiate that play correctly (the C can have a whistle and make a call - but his call accuracy is going to be significantly lower than the L who has a better look at this play).

if I am a assignor of officials, on-site game observer, coach, official, player, or fan, then I want the call to be correct. if I want the call to be correct, then I want the official who is in the best position with the best view of the play...that would be the L on block/charge plays going to the basket from C.

after all, last years Duke vs Butler NCAA Championship game has shown us that when the crew blew their whistles - they were correct 90% of the time; when they didn't blow their whistles - they were correct only 50% of the time...the key reason they didn't blow their whistle?...they were out of position and could not see the play (all of this, btw, is from the NCAA National Coordinator of Officials)...

if you want to, continue to have C make the call on plays as described in the OP, but just know that the accuracy of that call has been/is now/and will continue to be, lower than allowing the L to make that call.

Don't quibble. Your statement entails either a general or a universal rule. Both are wrong.

That's ok. We all make mistakes. Just own them.

ever heard "the tape doesn't lie"?...maybe not because a vast percentage of high school officials never watch tape to improve their accuracy, positioning, mechanics, or skills....

i may get calls wrong, but it's not because I was too stubborn to let the official with the best view make the call.

if you have any interest in improving as an official, you'll analyze plays and figure out a better way to call them....

keep having the C call the block/charge play going to the basket...you and Stevie Wonder will have about the same chance of getting it right!

Tell the L where the play originated from, and that in fact, it is "my primary" and that he is the liar because you did look right at him.

Then tell him that needs to be more professional at half-time.

Hard to stay on your feet while doing all that back-pedaling?:rolleyes:

So A3 catches a pass on the wing on C's side...B is playing a 2-3 zone and has lost track of A3. There is no defender within 10 feet of him. A3 drives to the basket where B4 is standing and waiting - B4 has clearly established LGP. The expected crash ensues...you would have the C wait for the L to call this because in your blanket-statement world the C should not have a whistle on this type of play. Even though there was nothing else for the C to be looking at? Even though it is clearly on the C's side of the key?

Ok...if you say so.

+1,000

Wow!

Just "WOW"!

Not really the best way to justify your position imo fwiw, Jeff.

...just saying.....

Wellllll,J.R... you know us terrible High School refs who never watch no film or nothun...we're just too darn stubborn to ever improve. Especially on those pesky block/charge plays.:rolleyes:

Huh?

Exactly what part of ""the C should not have a whistle" allows for the possibility that the C could have a whistle? That is 100% synonymous with "NEVER".

To pile on here, everything I've been taught and observed about 3-whistle mechanics goes against what jeffpea is saying. I see D1 officials as Center make this call quite often.

Well they must not be watching any film and trying to improve then...:p

I can see that one struck a nerve... ;)

jeffpea, what are your views on this play?

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Interesting. Didn't notice the defender's little hop-step to the side in the first take. But it took him more into harm's way, no doubt.

Mr Kellog needs to know the difference between NCAA - W and NCAA - M's interpretation of the infamous BLARGE!!! Although in BOTH cases, I am sure there would be a cell phone message waiting from the "Powers That Be'!!!

I think C had a better look at that play.

The play was entirely in the C's primary but I think the Lead got the right call.

Block because the secondary defender was under the basket?

Just wanted to note that this play happened before the rule change for secondary defenders attempting to take a charge.

PC, and the Center got it right.

Respectfully disagree...PC all the way
You're not one of those "He was moving" kind of guys, so what convinces you to call a block?

The defender for VA Tech established LGP and slid to his right to maintain it and took the hit in the torso from the offensive player who was not airborne. PC all the way.

What has that to do with the price of eggs?

That's a PC foul. B had LGP, and legally moved laterally.

Player control would have been my call

Haha...I was more wondering who jeffpea would have take the call in the play. Is this one of the plays that the C shouldn't call as it is a drive to the basket? It is a secondary defender, but it was in the C's primary.

For what it's worth, I would have a player control foul as well and would have the C take the call though I see nothing wrong with a double whistle from the lead.

Gotcha. I was wondering if that was it because I couldn't see anything else that would make this a block.

Between the lead and the point of contact were two other players who were uninvolved in the collision. He was triple stacked. I don't think he even had a look at the play....he was guessing (and got it wrong). But, it was a secondary defender so, the lead must have been right since it was his primary (or coming towards him). :eek:

Yes, i know, the defender was actually still outside the paint (certainly not under the basket) when the contact occurred and had actually come from further outside, which means the L didn't even have coverage of that player at any time from his position across the paint.

Plus, the offensive player was not airborne, so the under-the-basket rule, if it had been in effect, would have not even mattered....its purpose is not relevant to a dribbler curling through the lane and not shooting.

+1 -- putting away my plumber's kit now ...

+1 on all accounts.

And there is a fundamental issue of "calling what you see." There is NO WAY the L "saw" this play. He guessed and got it wrong.

I recently had a play very similar to this as the C and had a PC. The L had nothing b/c he didn't "have a good look." The coach was screaming..........

at his player, "where the hell were you going."

I've called plenty of PC fouls when the defensive player was moving. IMO Washington never established LGP on the offensive player and the collision occurred when Washington was moving laterally into A1 path.

Assuming No Airborne Shooter ...
 

And there is something illegal about this?

We've been told that (assuming a non-calculus background) there are eight directions that the defender can move in a situation like this (again, assuming no airborne shooter): forward, backward, right, left, forward right, forward left, backward right, and backward left. Only three of these movements are illegal, and would result in a defensive blocking foul. The other five movements by the defensive player would result in a player control foul.

Now please don't make me take out my protractor.

Billy, please quote my entire post and then ask the question. ;)

Is "Half-Quoted" A Word ???
 

If you were commenting on the defensive player never originally having legal guarding position, then I'm sorry that I half-quoted you. Now I won't have to whip out my protractor. I left it back at the lab in my lab coat pocket protector anyway. I was just trying to scare you. Mention a protractor to most people and they run away. Thanks for not calling my bluff.,

I'm curious: which of the requirements of 4-23-2 haven't been met?

Really?

B5 (just to give him a normal label) was directly in the line of A1's established line of travel when A1 was jut stepping past the 3-point line. A1 came nearly straight down the outside of the right lane line directly at B5. As A1 veered slightly towards the lane, B5 shifted to stay in that line. This one is not even close. B5 was in LGP for several steps. In fact, he had about as much LGP is possible.

Even the body language of lead, after the player was called, tells you he thinks he got it wrong. He's tugging on his pants and waiving for his partners to get the ball in. He just want's to get the ball back in play to get everyone to forget about it.

I'm sure he's waving to get the ball back in play b/c they had a Blarge and he didn't want to linger on the situation. As far as pulling on his pants, well maybe that something he used to do all the time anyway.


As far as A1's path, we just don't see it the same. His angle was toward the basket as soon as he got past the primary defender. B5 would have been in his path had A1 been driving directly towards the endline.

To establish LGP you have to have two feet on the floor facing the player with the ball. The rule doesn't say you have to be 100 percent squared up with him at all times during the play. I don't see how this play could be a block.

Fixed it for ya. ;)

I got the game video and had another official review the call that is in question. I had another official review the game video. He agreed that the play in question originated from the C's PCA and the C had the best view of the play. There was no secondary defender. Blue 11 was the primary defender and was plowed over. The 'L' was on the opposite side of the key and had 6 players in front of him. His take on the play is that 'L' should not have had anything since he was out of position and 'C' had the best look.

The video of the game does vindicate me as the 'C' and calling the charge. The video official said that his question is why was 'L' looking over in 'C' PCA when he had 5-6 other players to watch in his own PCA. The 'L' was ball watching.

if the "outside" official, the C, simply let's the L make the call, you don't have a blarge. it is exponentially easier to referee a play that is coming towards you, rather than a play that is going away from you.

Because of several plays like this that happened in a short time frame at major D1 conferences, the mechanic was changed to simply having the L call these plays.

The C (who had the same angle as the announcers - Dave Pasch & Len Elmore) could not see the defender move to his right to try and take the charge. The defender didn't fully get there. Did you happen to notice where the contact occurred? (defender was standing on the lane line). This is L's call....

Therefore, I would have said block (but only if I was at the L). If at C, I would have said: " ".

Obviously not in this case since the Lead got it wrong. 99% of replies on here have agreed that this is a PC foul.

This is simply not true, and I don't know where you get this from. I have watched numerous D1 games in person this year and have seen the C and Trail call block/charge plays where the dribbler starts a drive from their primary. Do they double up and sometimes let the Lead take it? Yes, but this play is the C's all the way.

Holy balls. How long have you officiated for? The defender didn't fully get there? He doesn't have to! The offensive player is not airborne and the defender obtained LGP. Sure the defender may be standing on the lane line, but 1. This is the C's call because the drive started in his area, 2. The defender is across the lane from the Lead, and 3. (As jdw said) This play is in the C's primary. Who told you this stuff?

And as Lead you would have been wrong. And as C, if you were being evaluated around here, you would have received an *** chewing in addition to getting dinged on your evaluation.

Here is the screenshot from the play. The Lead has two players between he and the players involved in the block/charge. How in the heck did he even see this? If you think it's a block from the C, I guess that is possible. But to say the Lead has a better look at this play and should always call it make absolutely no sense.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._5654118_n.jpg

This is pretty much the only statement I agree with. And it doesn't necessarily make it right. It's just true.

If both officials have good angles on the relevant action and have seen the whole play, this may be true. In this case, for any number of reasons it absolutely is not.

Why would you say this? There's no reason C couldn't see the defender's movements the entire time. He certainly had a better view than the L who had to look through two other players and out of his primary to see the defender.

You do know that a player standing even fully in the half of the lane opposite the L, let alone on the lane line on that side, is not in the L's primary, and is in fact in the C's PCA, don't you?

I agree with most posters here that this is a clear PC foul - I'm willing to listen to an argument that LGP hadn't been established, but I think that's a tough one to make. Regardless, the L had no look at this play.

And that screen shot is actually just AFTER the contact occurred.

Additionally, the defender is knocked directly backwards relative to where the dribbler is...that is a pretty good indicator that he made it into the path.

For NCAA-M a crash with a secondary defender in the paint is the Lead's primary no matter where the play originated. So you must have seen plays involving the primary defender or crashes outside the paint.

That is assuming the secondary defender came from the Lead's primary and the lead was covering that secondary defender. In this case, the secondary defender came from the C's primary and was in the C's primary when contact began.

I agree if the secondary defender came from the Lead's primary, but like Cameron said, he didn't in this place.

As far as the ones I have seen....yes you are probably right. I still say that the C should get the first crack at the play in this thread.

I wasn't talking about this case. If you go back you will see where I said the play occurred entirely in the C's primary. I am referring to zm's comment on other plays he has seen in D1 ball games.


I would hope the Lead would be cognizant of any potential secondary defender's in his primary when there is an impending drive to the basket, no matter where that secondary defender began his movements.