Do any of you have prohibitions? During a playoff game that I attended last season one of the officials from a neighboring association wore a ponytail. I'm not kidding.
In my association's bylaws it is "recommended" that we officials not have any facial hair with the exception of a mustache. Me and several other officials wear goatees in the offseason so we were joking about changing the rule. However, I shared the story about the ponytailed official. We can't wear a perfectly manicured goatee but that guy can wear a necklength ponytail.

Please tell me that the "ponytail guy" didn't get the championship game. :-)

There are no rules or bylaws in our association about hair (facial or otherwise), but it's pretty common knowledge that professionalism includes appearance.

Z

Not all have the same standards.
 

Appearance standards are going to be differnet depending on where you live. Even what is considered "professional" as different standards when you cross regions of the state, let alone country.

Peace

Show me one college official anywhere in the country that has anything other then eyes, nose, mouth, teeth, and skin on his face. Everything is shaved and none wear glasses. This is not a written rule but an unwritten rule. And all hair is cut over the ears and the neck is showing. If that is true about college officials, why do want to lower your standards when you call high school ball. Especially if you want to get at least a Juco or Division III schedule for college in the near future.

Now what I saw on Sunday.
 

I respectfully disagree with you. I went to the NCAA Rules Meeting and clinic in Chicago on Sunday. They held the Men's and Women's Meetings at the same time. Big Ten, Missouri Valley and many small college conference Officials attend this meetings. There were several officials that were there that had mustaches. Now they did not have goatees, but they did have mustaches. Many of them did. But also let us understand, that many women officials have pony tails and we watched tape that of the Final Four and one of the best women officials that attended this meeting wears a pony tail when she officiates. Pretty lady with dark black hair and her hair is just beyond her shoulder. I am not sure of her name, but she is as big as they get and she wears a pony tail.

I will admit that I did not know the names of everyone there. I could give you 10 names of the big time officials that had some kind of facial hair on both sides on the NCAA D1 Officiating spectrum. Now I will also say this, it seemed to be generational and cultural. They younger, African-American Officials tended to have facial hair then the older and white counterparts. I am not sure what that means, but it might reflect what was once required and what is required now. And the "older" guard if you will still practices what they had to long time ago. And since I do know some NFL and D1 NCAA Football Officials too, that same thing applies to them. It seems to be generational and cultural on who wears facial and who does not.

Peace

Just my take.

Ok, just because Dee Katner has a pony tail doesn't mean I am going to. And if I recall most of the black officials with a mustache have a very small one. Not the great big one that would grow on most white males.

Peace back :-)

I was not talking about Dee Katner, but this female official had a similar look as Dee.

Black men usually cannot have a very big mustache usually. Not the same kind of hair growth. :)

Peace

<b> Appearance standards are going to be differnet depending on where you live. Even what is considered "professional" as
different standards when you cross regions of the state, let alone country.</b>

To a point, but some things are pretty obvious so let's not get ridiculous. Show me a D-1 male ref with a ponytail. For that matter (apparently with the exception of the post that started this thread), show me a male ref with a ponytail that even gets high school varsity games.

Z

You do not see very many 250 pound officials at the D1 level, but you see them all the time at the HS level. Almost everyone at the meeting I attended Sunday was dressed in a suit or a very nice outfit. I see varsity officials show up in T-shirts and jeans. Hell I worked with some guys last year that had on sweats for our College game that we did. So as I said, "professional" standards are very different from area to area. There is much more to professionalism than what type of hair style you have on your head or face. You see a lot of things at the D1 level that you almost never see at the lower level college and HS varsity level.

Peace

Re: Now what I saw on Sunday.
 

That doesn't mean that they'll have them when the season starts. As has already been pointed out, some officials grow them in the off season and then shave prior to their first game. There maybe a few who don't shave them but not many.

As Rut said, the Dee Kantner look is pretty common. There are a lot of female officials who wear their hair in a pony tail. I don't believe that's an issue for them. i knoda like it! ;)

Also, Rut can correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm sure he will, but don't many black men avoid shaving because of the skin irritation. Or is the linesman on our football crew feeding us bunk? :D

Re: Re: Now what I saw on Sunday.
 

Well Tony, considering many official including Tom Rucker who retired last year, had a long career with a mustache. If you look at officials this year, you will see many African-American Officials with mustaches. Just an observation on my part. Ed Hightower has no facial hair. Lamar Simpson has no facial hair. But there was a guy who did the Big Ten Men's Tournament in Indianapolis did have facial hair (he also did the Conference USA Tournament Championship Game). But if I have get that chance or come close, I might have to get rid of the the goatee. But that is several years off from even getting that chance (Yeah, right!! :D)

No, many might avoid certain type of razors or certain types of shaving cream. I have personally never had a huge problems with bumps after shaving. But there are many that do. I have a mustache and beard trimmer that I use, I have no problems at all with bumps. But I do know that many do not shave that often because of that problem.

I will make this clear, I saw not a single white guy with facial hair. Not one. And I do not know any D1 Football Officials that have facial hair that are white. Interesting twist on this discussion.

Peace

<b> You see a lot of things at the D1 level that you almost never see at the lower level college and HS varsity level.</b>

Like I said, some things are pretty obvious. But this thread was started about a male ref with a ponytail. How many of those have you seen at the HS varsity level or higher? Find me one assignor who would call that professional. You can relate to presence and credibility right?.... I can't imagine a male ref with a ponytail who would have credibility with either coach or enough presence to offset the appearance.

Z

What does presense have to do with this conversation?
 

Z,

I do not live all over the country. I do not work in all conferences across the country or know all officials in the country. So you think or what I think is professional is sure different from other parts of the country. I think we have proven that on this board time and time again. I do not live in West Virgina or Tennessee or even Alabama or Florida. I am sure the way we do things up here are not completely the same in other parts of the country. I think I have already demonstrated that getting games, moving up or whether you do boy's and girl's basketball all are not the same as many places around this great country. Hell I saw an official last year with Black Jeans on (had a patch in the back) doing a varsity Tournament. I thought that was entirely unprofessional and looked very bad, but he was there. I am sure that was not the first or last time this official had that kind of attire on, but he was working that X-Mas Tournament.

Peace

<i>What does presense have to do with this conversation?</i>

Presence is the "image" that you project while officiating. If your hair is in a ponytail or you have black jeans on, your presence is already hurt.

<i>I do not live all over the country. I do not work in all conferences across the country or know all officials in the country.</i>

You mean you don't live out of a van down by the river? :-) Me neither, but I would imagine you've seen enough high school and college ball on TV to see that "the look" is pretty universal. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

<i>So you think or what I think is professional is sure different from other parts of the country.</i>

To a point. At some point, it becomes absurd.

<i>Hell I saw an official last year with Black Jeans on (had a patch in the back) doing a varsity Tournament. I thought that was entirely unprofessional and looked very bad, but he was there.</i>

You were right. It was not only unprofessional, but it is not even a proper uniform. Remember that a sample size of one proves nothing.

<i> I am sure that was not the first or last time this official had that kind of attire on, but he was working that X-Mas Tournament. </i>

Actually, I think rather than assuming that he had worn that before, I might assume that he had a "pants problem" and forgot his backup pair.

Z

Presense?
 

Interesting. When I suggested this before, I was told how important all the other things were much more important than "Presence." Actually the argument that I gave has been mocked as if what I said came from another planet. Now you want to hold on to an issue that I said from the very beginning and claim its importants. I find that interesting.

Well considering the way he officiated the game I witnessed, it seemed like his "attention to detail" was lacking big time. This was my point before about wanting a specific partner. This guy might have known every rule and mechanic back and forth, but you could not tell by the way he officiated or the way he hustled or the way his uniform looked. So Z you are really proving my point in this discussion that we have had for months (I am not trying to go there again, just making an observation). So the guy that has the ponytail and the guy that wears jeans, might know the rules, past many tests or be competent in many ways in officiating, but does not prove it by the way they look. Or better yet, gives a negative impression of how they take officiating. And that impression can affect the way coaches, players and even fans view us and the job we do.

Now my only point about the ponytail is that I am sure there is someone over the country that has worn a ponytail for a varsity and maybe even a small college game. I would have never thought anyone would wear a pair of black jeans, but they did. And even when we talk about facial hair, things have been changing across the country in other professional arenas with what people wear their hair and what is on their face. It is only concievable that someone might do something that was seen as unprofessional at one time. I would love to say I know what everyone does around the country and world, but the reality is that I do not. I am surprised that doing a HS game requires a "floor test" or requires some evaluation just to do a HS game. That does not apply where I live, but it does somewhere. And I guess that is the point. ;)

Peace

<i>Presense? </i>

Note: That was a quote of <i>your </i>original spelling by the way. :-)

<i>Interesting. When I suggested this before, I was told how important all the other things were much more important than
"Presence." </i>

Based on my experiences, I still very much believe that rules and mechanics are more important in my partner than presence and I also believe that a beginning ref needs to concentrate on rules and mechanics before working on more advanced stuff.

<i>Well considering the way he officiated the game I witnessed, it seemed like his "attention to detail" was lacking big time.</i>

Well then he is non-professional in many ways and the only question is why an assignor gave him the game in the first place.

<i>So Z you are really proving my point in this discussion that we have had for months (I am not trying to go there again, just making an observation). So the guy that has the ponytail and the guy that wears jeans, might know the rules, past many tests or be competent in many ways in officiating, but does not prove it by the way they look. Or better yet, gives a negative impression of how they take officiating. And that impression can affect the way coaches, players and even fans view us and the job we do. </i>

First of all, you <i> are </i> going there again. If you are going to use one guy who wears jeans in his game to prove your point, have at it. I'll use the rest of the guys who dress correctly and have great rule knowledge as my "test subjects."

<i> Now my only point about the ponytail is that I am sure there is someone over the country that has worn a ponytail for a varsity and maybe even a small college game.
</i>

Perhaps somewhere someone refs a game wearing nothing but a thong and a tatoo of Ed Rush on their left butt cheek. It's still unprofessional by the standards of any assignor you or I know right?

Z

Where you live and culture have a lot to do with "Professional looking" or what is consider a professional look. Where I live the culture dictates a longer hairstyle for some. That is there belief. I have seen many officials with ponytails. Do they aspire to do D1, I do not know.

Just my 2 cents!

AK ref SE

Re: ponytail
 

In case anyone was curious. This official was a black guy and I don't remember anything else "negative" about him, so he otherwise called a good game I guess. He also had a mustache. Anyway, I posted about that experience just because I consider any veteran official ahead of me in line to work at 1)the state playoff level, 2)the college level, and maybe 3)the pro level. I got my feet wet with some varsity level games last year (this is my third season) and I really try to be conscious about exuding a professional appearance. I typically work in a shirt, tie and slacks, so that's what I usually show up to the gym wearing. I think that not only helps me on the court with the coaches, players and fans, but I would like to think people within my association take notice. But this ponytail guy totally threw me for a loop. I wondered if my approach was even worthwhile. But I'll just chalk that experience up as an aberration.

P.S. Any SWAC (Southern Univ-BR), SEC (LSU), Southland (Louisiana-Monroe & Southeastern La.), or Sunbelt (Louisiana-Lafayette) officials out there, I'd love to come watch you work if you have a game within driving distance of Baton Rouge. I look forward to sharing with all of you.

Presense or Presence?
 

I think if you look way back when, this discussion on my part had to do with taking tests and proving rules knowledge through test taking. And getting a 95 as compared to a 85 does not prove that someone is better at the rules because they got a certain score on a silly test. Not everyone are good test takers and those tests are most of the time do not tell the entire story. They worry more about semantic statements and confusing wording to rather than testing the application of the rules we apply. Rules knowledge is extremely important, but not the only way or even the main way we are judged as officials. Considering that you Z are questioning the professionalism of an official with a ponytail and whether he should be hired at the upper level based on that fact and that fact alone. It is the same thing we are judged on and what keeps us from having a smooth game. Or at least we can be judged by our appearance in ways that it affects the way our job was performed by others. In this case the way an official wears his hair can affect what games an official does despite how knowlegable that official might be in the rules department. So rules might be an officials best asset, but the might not ever prove it because of the way they look.

Peace

Rut,

I can't debate what I don't understand. When you start sentences with "and," "so," and "or," your point gets lost in the delivery.

Next time I see a male ref on TV with a ponytail or wearing jeans, I'll let you know. :-)

Z

I just want to point out that although some of you may have problems with Rut's English, and his propensity for discussion, and even though he says he doesn't care for girls' basketball, he was the first one to make the point explicit that this ref that braboa was wondering about was male. (Wow!! Was that a run-on sentence, or what!?) Braboa does use the male pronoun throughout his post, but that could just have been bad typing. I appreciate Jeff making explicit the male/female differences in acceptable hairstyle, and the race differences in facial hair. I don't think it hurts anything to keep being explicit about the fact that men and women are different, and blacks and whites are different and there may be different standards.

As a female, I have thought seriously about growing out my hair because so many female refs DO wear bangs and ponytails. Except for Melissa Barlow, and a couple of black women, virtually all the pro women have long hair. But I don't like my hair long, and it's much harder to care for. Hmmmm... interesting dilemma, one that men don't have to worry about!

Standards
 

In my own state we have differences of professionalism and professional standards. I am sure the standards are different in other states. That is the point, not whether anyone likes girl's basketball or wears a ponytail. My point was only to illustrate that standards are different from area and level. What officials do at the college and D1 level have nothing to do with what officials do at the HS level. At least it does not around where I live.

Peace

Re: Standards
 

That's true, Jeff, and I don't think anybody will argue with you. I think the point some others were making is that the standards aren't really all that different. Yes, some areas tolerate a mustache or goatee; but no area that I know of would tolerate a pony-tail (on a guy) or a full beard (at least on the college level). And the further up the ladder you go, the less difference there is in the standards. Would you agree with that?

Chuck

Re: Re: Standards
 

Chuck, I have seen many officials with full beards in my state. I think it all depends on who is assigning the games. Not everyone gets games by one person or one group. But just because we do not see officials wearing goatees and beards does not mean that there is a standard that everyone <b>has to</b> adhere to.

Guys I have a goatee and would get rid of it if someone told me to and told me I would not be hired because of that fact. But I have not at all been told that or been suggested that is the best thing to do. Chuck, I am telling you I do not know something and I do not want to speculate when this story was about a HS ref. College is another level all together. They are paid differently. The expectations are different and usually much more money is at stake with the conferences and coaches involved. Everyone does not want to be a college official. I know it might suprise some of you, but that is the case.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Standards
 

Absolutely. Again, I'll agree completely. I never intended to say that there was one standard that everyone has to adhere to. Obviously, that's not the case. I think everyone has already admitted that.

It doesn't surprise me at all. But it's irrelevant to the question I asked. I was just curious if you would agree that the standard for a person's appearance becomes much more "standard" (for lack of a better word) or less varied as an official moves up the ladder? You see full beards at the HS level. Ok, I buy that. But when have you ever seen a full beard on TV? My only point was that I think an official's appearance is more controlled as he/she reaches higher levels. Do you think that's a fair statement?

Chuck

All I got to say is "What hair?"

Being naturally bald on top, I finish the job and shave my head and my face. The longest and only visible hair on my head are my eyebrows and eyelashes.

All I got to say on that is no hair is no problem. Bald is natural for a lot of people so having no hair has never been a stigma in moving up. Now that Michael Jordan is bald, shaving your head has become fashionable. This is especially true with blacks but not limited to such.

Camron,

Sounds like you and I would be book ends. I do the same thing. I've told a coach before, upon his questioning of one of my calls, that the hair got in my eyes. That usually gets a laugh out of them and shuts them up until the next call.

The problem I have with a shaved head is it looks like I'm sweating profusely whenever I'm on the floor since there's no hair to absorb the moisture. I don't really sweat that much but I hate the appearance. I'm afraid it makes me look out of shape. Does anyone else struggle with this? If so, what do you do to counteract?

Barry- I like your comment to the coach about the hair in your eyes.

I am in the military and have some hair(very short) I sweat just saying the word. To me, if you are hustling up and down the court....sweating is showing that you are working hard!
Sweating is our bodies way of controlling our inside body temperature. So to control it may make matters worse.

If someone is carrying extra weight(i am not saying you do). The perception that some people make about when people sweat is that they are out of shape. They do not think that we are running up and down the court with kids half or more our age(in my case) and the gym is hot.

AK ref SE

I have been "clean" on my head for 7 years now. It has actually hurt me in some cases. I have had supervisors talk about the fact that they didn't like my "hairstyle" (or lack thereof). One college supervisor in particular hasn't hired me and I know that my hair choice is low on thier list of preference--is that the only reason--who knows?

As for the sweat, most people would be surprised at how much your hair will hold. I am in good shape and not heavy (6'2" 190 lbs) and the sweat rolls off my head during a game. It is a by-product of running. I don't think it shows one to be out of shape.

I'm not shaved but buzzed pretty close around the edges.
Nothing left in the middle - on tape I'm the ref who
reflects light. :) I'm a litle surprised to hear Stripes is
not getting games from an assignor because he shaves his
head, but as he says who knows. I sweat at the drop of a
hat, I attribute that to being in good shape.

Gerry Sauter, one of my camp clinicians, is the totally bald/shaved guy in the Big 10.

I know that there are lots of officials sporting the same "do" as me, but this supervisor doesn't like it. All of the other college leagues I work, it isn't an issue. My ratings have been good and I worked a conference tournament in one league, but I can't get a sniff in the other league.

Important to remember is that what it takes to get in may not be the same as what it takes to stay. I'm betting that any of the previous years NCAA semi-final or final officials could show up with a shaved head, longer hair, or a goatee and they would still get games. Once you're established as a quality official, other items have a smaller impact.

So, just because we see and official in NCAA D1 with a certain look, it doesn't mean they got the posistion with that look or that anyone else like them will.

That is weird. Think of buying a wig? :)

Physical appearance should have nothing to do with how well one can officiate a basketball game, but it does. An official must gain the respect of all participants, including coaches, other officials and supervisors, in order to succeed. These people whose respect we must obtain judge us based upon their own biases. Most coaches, officials and ADs are pretty conservative in their grooming and dress. They want the same from other officials. If you are a young official trying to advance, you'd better look the part.

If Tom Rucker were trying to break into D1 officiating today, with his age, weight, limp and pants that don't quite make it to his ankles, he wouldn't get a second look. But no one cared about Rucker's appearance during his last 15 years in the Big 10 because they knew from his first 15 years in the league that he could call the game.

Wierd or not, it is the way it is. I haven't gotten to the point that I want to work that league bad enough to grow my hair out. Will it change??? Maybe. I hope my work on the court will be the deciding factor, not the length of my hair.