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The_Rookie Tue Dec 07, 2010 03:13pm

Refs and coach/AD
 
As a newbie, my instructors are hammering home to establish excellent mechanics including use of proper signals. While other officials notice this, I would think that coaches and ADs are more focused on getting the calls right then on signals.

Vets, is this true?

APG Tue Dec 07, 2010 03:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Rookie (Post 705944)
As a newbie, my instructors are hammering home to establish excellent mechanics including use of proper signals. While other officials notice this, I would think that coaches and ADs are more focused on getting the calls right then on signals.

Vets, is this true?

Yes, coaches/ADs are more concerned about getting the calls correct, but don't underestimate the importance of good mechanics and proper signals. Part of our job as officials is being a salesmen. If you're in the proper spot to call plays and look confident with good, crisp signals, that goes a long way towards a coach believing your call and off your back.

I'd say the easiest thing for young officials to perfect is mechanics (specifically good signals). That just comes from time in front of the mirror practicing. That can be worked on from day one. Play calling is something that comes with time, so invariably, you'll have struggles with that.

Adam Tue Dec 07, 2010 03:21pm

I agree with APG. The better your mechanics and positioning, the more likely you are to get the benefit of the doubt on close calls.

Show up in gray tennis shoes, white socks, and almost black dress slacks (brown belt) sometime and see how many calls get questioned as opposed to when you're in the proper uniform.

Eastshire Tue Dec 07, 2010 03:31pm

The better your mechanics, the more likely you are to get the call right in the first place. If you could call the game from anywhere, we wouldn't be on the court in the first place.

The only thing a coach likes less than a bad call is not knowing what you called in the first place. Communication, including signals, is an important part of the job.

What's more, these are both areas that focus and effort bring quick results. You can't rush experience, but mechanics and signaling can be practiced anywhere. This makes it a good investment of time for the new official.

Jurassic Referee Tue Dec 07, 2010 03:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Rookie (Post 705944)
As a newbie, my instructors are hammering home to establish excellent mechanics including use of proper signals. While other officials notice this, I would think that coaches and ADs are more focused on getting the calls right then on signals.

Vets, is this true?

Yes. And if I'm evaluating, I'll take the guy that gets the call right over the guy that looked great but screwed up the call.

But that's just me.....

The optimum is both, of course. Get the call right while using the correct mechanics.

Raymond Tue Dec 07, 2010 03:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Rookie (Post 705944)
As a newbie, my instructors are hammering home to establish excellent mechanics including use of proper signals. While other officials notice this, I would think that coaches and ADs are more focused on getting the calls right then on signals.

Vets, is this true?

Is there any reason you think the 2 concepts are mutually exclusive?

But it is a lot easier and controllable to perfect your mechanics than it is your play-calling. One thing that holds rookies back in their first year is that they spend so much time thinking about their mechanics that they lose focus on play-calling. They screw up basic mechanics and start getting nervous and flustered and forget all about game.

Work on your mechanics off the court so that you are confident with them when you get on the court and it will free your mind up to start looking at the plays correctly. And if your mechanics are decent from the get-go then your observers/evaluators/mentors can concentrate more on your play-calling abilities instead of having to nit-pick you with mechanical stuff.

Camron Rust Tue Dec 07, 2010 05:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 705956)
Yes. And if I'm evaluating, I'll take the guy that gets the call right over the guy that looked great but screwed up the call.

But that's just me.....

The optimum is both, of course. Get the call right while using the correct mechanics.

And, there are enough "good" officials to take the ones that put in the effort to look and act professional.

Jurassic Referee Tue Dec 07, 2010 05:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 705981)
And, there are enough "good" officials to take the ones that put in the effort to look and act professional.

Yup, the ones that make the effort should be ranked higher than the ones who might also be equal in call-making ability but don't have the "whole package".

Texas Aggie Tue Dec 07, 2010 05:40pm

Coaches/ADs are not specifically concerned at all about mechanics, but if you look sharp, you and your calls will be taken more seriously -- everything else being equal.

Not really anything to do with mechanics, but with perspective: My first few years, I had a LOT of trouble with women coaches -- jr. high to college. Not all of them, but most, for some reason. In the mid-90s, I was out for a couple of years for injury and slowly got back into things over the next several years. Instead of being a late college student or recent college grad, I was now as old or in some cases older than the coaches and handling women coaches is one of my strengths. I can not recall a T I've given a woman head coach in the last 5 or 6 years. Same official, different outcome.

biggravy Wed Dec 08, 2010 02:36am

Only thing I would add is to remember they're not always going to agree with your calls anyway. That's why they are called howler monkeys. I would at least prefer my mechanics have me in the right spot, and my signals are crisp so at least maybe there is a little doubt in their mind that maybe they ARE crazy and I do know what I am doing ;)

JRutledge Wed Dec 08, 2010 03:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Rookie (Post 705944)
As a newbie, my instructors are hammering home to establish excellent mechanics including use of proper signals. While other officials notice this, I would think that coaches and ADs are more focused on getting the calls right then on signals.

Vets, is this true?

No one is going to think you get the calls right if you do not have good mechanics. If you do not believe me, call a foul and do not raise your hand. Then tell me what happens when the coaches are confused about your calls. All mechanics are selling points for your calls. Someone is always going to think you screw up at some point and your mechanics might make them at least believe you think you are right. Confidence and positioning all are apart of a selling job. We are sales people at the end of the day.

Peace

bainsey Wed Dec 08, 2010 03:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 705989)
Yup, the ones that make the effort should be ranked higher than the ones who might also be equal in call-making ability but don't have the "whole package".

If you could break it down, JR, what are the criteria of the "whole package?"

BillyMac Wed Dec 08, 2010 07:31am

Mechanics Are Fun ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 706055)
If you do not believe me, call a foul and do not raise your hand. Then tell me what happens when the coaches are confused about your calls.

Let's not forget about confusing your partner. Violation, or foul? Initiate switch, throwin spot, or free throw shooter, or none of the above?

BillyMac Wed Dec 08, 2010 07:31am

Note to Mark Padgett ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 706056)
"whole package?"

No image please.

Back In The Saddle Wed Dec 08, 2010 09:06am

Not that I advocate ever getting the call wrong, but much of the time you're more believable if you come out with a good, strong wrong call than a weak, unconvincing right call. Good mechanics can buy you some credibility until you have time to establish a reputation as being a good official. Bad mechanics can doom you before you even get started.

Scrapper1 Wed Dec 08, 2010 09:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle (Post 706081)
Not that I advocate ever getting the call wrong, but much of the time you're more believable if you come out with a good, strong wrong call than a weak, unconvincing right call.

I worked a college came last night, and had a play "blow up" on me. Long story short, I was C in transition when the ball was deflected several times and went out of bounds. I was too close to the play, but my judgment was red ball. Well, the crowd behind me went nuts. I looked across the court to my Trail, hoping that he had a look and would come rescue me, but he didn't.

In the locker room after the half, I asked my partners about it and the Trail said it was definitely red. Other partner (VERY well-established official) said that's one where -- especially since I wasn't 100% on it -- it could have used a little "sell" and maybe diffused the reaction.

Raymond Wed Dec 08, 2010 09:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 706083)
I worked a college came last night, and had a play "blow up" on me. Long story short, I was C in transition when the ball was deflected several times and went out of bounds. I was too close to the play, but my judgment was red ball. Well, the crowd behind me went nuts. I looked across the court to my Trail, hoping that he had a look and would come rescue me, but he didn't.

In the locker room after the half, I asked my partners about it and the Trail said it was definitely red. Other partner (VERY well-established official) said that's one where -- especially since I wasn't 100% on it -- it could have used a little "sell" and maybe diffused the reaction.

So you got the call right? And you mention nothing about the other coach reacting to your call. So I don't see the need to have to have sold anything.

referee99 Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:06am

All I can say...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 706083)
I worked a college came last night, and had a play "blow up" on me. Long story short, I was C in transition when the ball was deflected several times and went out of bounds. I was too close to the play, but my judgment was red ball. Well, the crowd behind me went nuts. I looked across the court to my Trail, hoping that he had a look and would come rescue me, but he didn't.

In the locker room after the half, I asked my partners about it and the Trail said it was definitely red. Other partner (VERY well-established official) said that's one where -- especially since I wasn't 100% on it -- it could have used a little "sell" and maybe diffused the reaction.

...is if I'm Trail I'm comin' in with loud verbal support at a minimum. "Great call!"

Scrapper1 Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 706084)
So you got the call right? And you mention nothing about the other coach reacting to your call. So I don't see the need to have to have sold anything.

For the exact reason that BITS mentioned. A borderline call can seem like a good call with a little sell behind it.

Upward ref Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 705961)
Is there any reason you think the 2 concepts are mutually exclusive?

But it is a lot easier and controllable to perfect your mechanics than it is your play-calling. One thing that holds rookies back in their first year is that they spend so much time thinking about their mechanics that they lose focus on play-calling. They screw up basic mechanics and start getting nervous and flustered and forget all about game.

Work on your mechanics off the court so that you are confident with them when you get on the court and it will free your mind up to start looking at the plays correctly. And if your mechanics are decent from the get-go then your observers/evaluators/mentors can concentrate more on your play-calling abilities instead of having to nit-pick you with mechanical stuff.

Most of the experienced guys/gals say to concentrate on one thing each game to improve on. I need a lot of work in all areas so I'm really not trying to follow that advice (yet) . seems like there's a million things to get down pat ,and thats just 2 man mechanics ! My partner for my first 3 games kept saying to just get comfortable with myself and have confidence. That and asking if I was going to get in the game any time soon ! :o

Multiple Sports Wed Dec 08, 2010 01:02pm

Couldn't of been said better......................
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 705948)
Yes, coaches/ADs are more concerned about getting the calls correct, but don't underestimate the importance of good mechanics and proper signals. Part of our job as officials is being a salesmen. If you're in the proper spot to call plays and look confident with good, crisp signals, that goes a long way towards a coach believing your call and off your back.

I'd say the easiest thing for young officials to perfect is mechanics (specifically good signals). That just comes from time in front of the mirror practicing. That can be worked on from day one. Play calling is something that comes with time, so invariably, you'll have struggles with that.

Hey Rook......

Do everything you can to "look the part"!!!!

Then during the summer you can become a "play caller" and a "game manager".


But at this part of your career the confidence that you exude through proper mechanics will call a long way with players coaches and your partners !!!!!!

bob jenkins Wed Dec 08, 2010 02:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upward ref (Post 706150)
Most of the experienced guys/gals say to concentrate on one thing each game to improve on. I need a lot of work in all areas so I'm really not trying to follow that advice (yet) . seems like there's a million things to get down pat

If you try to do the "million things", you'll end up doing none of them.

Pick at most 2 or 3 things to work on. When you get one of them down, pick something else.

Raymond Wed Dec 08, 2010 02:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 706129)
For the exact reason that BITS mentioned. A borderline call can seem like a good call with a little sell behind it.

I was assuming you had a strong whistle and mechanic on the play. ;)

BillyMac Wed Dec 08, 2010 06:22pm

Smart Guy ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle (Post 706081)
You're more believable if you come out with a good, strong wrong call than a weak, unconvincing right call.

Agree. We used to have a great interpreter who used to always say, "If you're going to make a bad call, make it a really strong, bad call".

Scrapper1 Wed Dec 08, 2010 06:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 706202)
I was assuming you had a strong whistle and mechanic on the play. ;)

I had my "normal" whistle and mechanic, which is pretty textbook; without much flair to it.

Jurassic Referee Wed Dec 08, 2010 07:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 706261)
I had my "normal" whistle and mechanic, which is pretty textbook; without much flair to it.

Showing quiet confidence can be the best "sell" of all.

Raymond Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 706261)
I had my "normal" whistle and mechanic, which is pretty textbook; without much flair to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 706278)
Showing quiet confidence can be the best "sell" of all.

Agreed. Treating the call as routine can sometimes be just as effective as selling it.

Me personally, I usually 'sell' a call when I whistle something out of my primary, usually to indicate to everyone that it was something I had to go get.

bob jenkins Thu Dec 09, 2010 08:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 706260)
Agree. We used to have a great interpreter who used to always say, "If you're going to make a bad call, make it a really strong, bad call".

"Often wrong. Never indecisive."

Upward ref Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 706200)
If you try to do the "million things", you'll end up doing none of them.

Pick at most 2 or 3 things to work on. When you get one of them down, pick something else.

I think you're right . I'm going to try and concentrate on :
1) Strong whistle ( an experienced ref said he couldn't hear my whistle all the time. I solicited his opinion after my third game )
2)" crisp " signals
3) proper reporting

Adam Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upward ref (Post 706391)
I think you're right . I'm going to try and concentrate on :
1) Strong whistle ( an experienced ref said he couldn't hear my whistle all the time. I solicited his opinion after my third game )
2)" crisp " signals
3) proper reporting

Regarding #1, are you using a Fox40 Classic? I was given the same feedback after my first varsity game, along with the question, "Are you using a mini?" I hadn't even realized I'd purchased a Fox40 Mini. Made a huge difference.

Upward ref Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 706394)
Regarding #1, are you using a Fox40 Classic? I was given the same feedback after my first varsity game, along with the question, "Are you using a mini?" I hadn't even realized I'd purchased a Fox40 Mini. Made a huge difference.

Thanks,
Actually I think it is the Mini . It was a fairly small crowd and I thought I was whistling ok . I also was looking to get a whole list of stuff I messed up ,but the whistle was his only complaint !

Adam Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upward ref (Post 706406)
Thanks,
Actually I think it is the Mini . It was a fairly small crowd and I thought I was whistling ok . I also was looking to get a whole list of stuff I messed up ,but the whistle was his only complaint !

My first recommendation, spend the extra dollar or two on the classic. Regardless of the gym size, your whistle is important.

CMHCoachNRef Thu Dec 09, 2010 05:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upward ref (Post 706150)
Most of the experienced guys/gals say to concentrate on one thing each game to improve on. I need a lot of work in all areas so I'm really not trying to follow that advice (yet) . seems like there's a million things to get down pat ,and thats just 2 man mechanics ! My partner for my first 3 games kept saying to just get comfortable with myself and have confidence. That and asking if I was going to get in the game any time soon ! :o

While you may have many things to work on, I would suggest one minor thing that has tended to work for many of the new officials -- SLOW DOWN!!! As new officials there are SO many things to think about during the game.

If the first thing you do when you blow the whistle is just pause for a moment, think about what you are going to call, then raise your arm with a hand or fist, then pause again, make the call (and give a preliminary signal, if needed), then pause again, point to the spot/signal number of shots, pause again, then either go to your new position or go to the reporting area in the case of a foul.

If a throw-in situation, check for subs, check with your partner, pause again and then put the ball in play (or watch your area).

If reporting a foul, STOP completely once you have reached the reporting area, pause, make eye contact with the scorekeeper, count the basket (if appropriate), report the fouling team/player, pause, report the infraction, pause, and indicate the number of free throws (or spot). Make sure that the scorer has processed the information. If a throw-in, check for subs (bring them in, if there are), pause, make eye contact with your partner, put the ball in play (or watch your area). If shooting free throws, briskly move to your position, pause, make eye contact with your partner to make sure that you are both ready for play and that he/she is indicating the proper number of free throws.

If you consciously try to go very slowly, you will likely be going at a very good pace. Generally, newer officials are always in a hurry to do everything. By slowing down, you have an opportunity to worry about one thing at a time.

tomegun Thu Dec 09, 2010 06:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by referee99 (Post 706101)
...is if I'm Trail I'm comin' in with loud verbal support at a minimum. "Great call!"


I don't like this advice. I don't think it is necessary.

Many new officials do not work on these things away from the court:

1. Signals - we can all perfect our signals in front of a mirror. Game action will cause them to likely fall below perfection, but they will still be good from practice.
2. Rule knowledge and application
3. Uniform

refnrev Thu Dec 09, 2010 06:18pm

The whistle and your mechanics are your voice on the court. Speak wisely!

CMHCoachNRef Thu Dec 09, 2010 06:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 706509)
Many new officials do not work on these things away from the court:

1. Signals - we can all perfect our signals in front of a mirror. Game action will cause them to likely fall below perfection, but they will still be good from practice.
2. Rule knowledge and application
3. Uniform

Good points...

Upward ref Fri Dec 10, 2010 04:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef (Post 706502)
While you may have many things to work on, I would suggest one minor thing that has tended to work for many of the new officials -- SLOW DOWN!!! As new officials there are SO many things to think about during the game.

If the first thing you do when you blow the whistle is just pause for a moment, think about what you are going to call, then raise your arm with a hand or fist, then pause again, make the call (and give a preliminary signal, if needed), then pause again, point to the spot/signal number of shots, pause again, then either go to your new position or go to the reporting area in the case of a foul.

If a throw-in situation, check for subs, check with your partner, pause again and then put the ball in play (or watch your area).

If reporting a foul, STOP completely once you have reached the reporting area, pause, make eye contact with the scorekeeper, count the basket (if appropriate), report the fouling team/player, pause, report the infraction, pause, and indicate the number of free throws (or spot). Make sure that the scorer has processed the information. If a throw-in, check for subs (bring them in, if there are), pause, make eye contact with your partner, put the ball in play (or watch your area). If shooting free throws, briskly move to your position, pause, make eye contact with your partner to make sure that you are both ready for play and that he/she is indicating the proper number of free throws.

If you consciously try to go very slowly, you will likely be going at a very good pace. Generally, newer officials are always in a hurry to do everything. By slowing down, you have an opportunity to worry about one thing at a time.

Slowing down is going to the top of my list ! I don't know why I feel so rushed and even mentioned it to our trainers/instructors. i guess trying to hustle and not being percieved as lazy makes it worse,leading to screw-ups. :o Off now for another adventure : An 8:00 game and my partner has a 6:30 game thats at least a 35-45 minute ride between the two locations! Guess I'll be standing around looking at the clock and practicing patience !

Adam Fri Dec 10, 2010 04:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upward ref (Post 706771)
Slowing down is going to the top of my list ! I don't know why I feel so rushed and even mentioned it to our trainers/instructors. i guess trying to hustle and not being percieved as lazy makes it worse,leading to screw-ups. :o Off now for another adventure : An 8:00 game and my partner has a 6:30 game thats at least a 35-45 minute ride between the two locations! Guess I'll be standing around looking at the clock and practicing patience !

6:30 plus 1 hour plus 35 minutes? I've got 8:05 at best.

BillyMac Fri Dec 10, 2010 07:17pm

Can You Hear Me Now ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 706394)
Are you using a Fox40 Classic? I was given the same feedback after my first varsity game, along with the question, "Are you using a mini?" I hadn't even realized I'd purchased a Fox40 Mini. Made a huge difference.

I was using a Fox40 Mini, by choice. Got the same advice from a colleague. I ordered a few Fox40 Classics that night, as soon as I got home.

Upward ref Sun Dec 12, 2010 02:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 706772)
6:30 plus 1 hour plus 35 minutes? I've got 8:05 at best.

8:05 would have been nice. partner was a no show. Men's league was fairly well behaved and cooperated for the most part. Opening pep talk was short and sweet . Me : I'm looking for good sportsmanship tonight and no rough play. I'll be calling this game by myself and doing the best I can , now give me two jumpers ! I made it through two 16 minute halves , got in , got done , got out ! The table crew ( 2 ladies that don't need stun guns )at the rec. center were most helpful ,and could almost have done it without me. :) Still trying to find out the first rule of officiating ?

BillyMac Sun Dec 12, 2010 02:29pm

No Need To Share The Answer With Us ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upward ref (Post 707077)
Still trying to find out the first rule of officiating ?

Please do us all a favor and just use the search function on the Forum. Just type in "First Rule of Officiating", and Mark Padgett's username and then you'll have your answer.

BktBallRef Sun Dec 12, 2010 05:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Rookie (Post 705944)
As a newbie, my instructors are hammering home to establish excellent mechanics including use of proper signals. While other officials notice this, I would think that coaches and ADs are more focused on getting the calls right then on signals.

Vets, is this true?

Getting the call right AND knowing not what to call comes with experience, not clinics.


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