When is it too late to turnback a game ???????
 

I jusr received a small college basketball game for wednesday evening and called my h.s. assigner. He whined about me turning the game and how i was being unprofessional.

My response was that it was a win win for everyone. Now a jv guy gets a varsity game and a guy sittin home gets a jv game. The assigner and I have a good relationship and I told him that doing things for officials will make our
board better in the long run.

Do you guys think that 48 hrs in enough time and how do your assigners
where you live handle this issue?????

If your assignor uses a computer-based assigning system like the Arbiter or RefTown, then it's very easy to re-assign the game. If your assignor is a dinosaur who still uses pencil and paper, then it's a bigger pain because he will have to get on the phone and call people.

There are two questions here. Is it unprofessional to turn back the game and when is too late to turn back a game. There's no right or wrong answer to either question. The answer for each varies by assignor.

Agreed -- it might also depend on the particular night. Maybe this Wed is one of those nights when "everyone" is playing, and the assignor is already short of officials. Or, maybe this is the only game and referees have been calling the assigner begging for games.

Maybe the game you were on was the big rivalry game, so it's not as simple as moving up a JV ref. The assignor might need to move another V ref to your game and then re-assign that "lesser" V game.

I think the professional way to handle this is to tell the small college guy you'll get back to him after you communicate with your HS assignor. Then call the HS assignor and see if he's OK with the switch.

My attitude has always been that my HS game is no less important than a small college date and my contract for the HS game is binding unless the HS assignor agrees to let me out of it. I don't work a lot of college basketball, but I worked a pretty full D3 baseball schedule up until I quit a few years ago and the college assignor hated that I wouldn't just dump HS commitments at the drop of a hat for him and it's one reason I just decided to not work those games anymore.

It is best to have these situations resolved before they come up...because they will come up. When I was hired for college this season, I asked each of my high school assignors how late they would take back a game if I got a college game...and each said that 24 hours is fine. Same-day turnbacks are not OK, especially on Tuesdays and Fridays...which is when every high school plays.

I told my college assignor and he said that if he knows I have a HS game, he will give me 30 minutes to get off the high school game before he offers the game to another official.

High school starts next week..so I have not yet had to test this.

It ain't that easy. It depends on # of games to be covered plus availability on that particular night. We might also have to match partners depending on the game. We don't want 2 fairly inexperienced guys on a big game and we don't want new officials taking varsity games they aren't ready for yet either. We also try to keep people away from going to the same location too many times.

If someone tells me they're available and I assign them based on that availability...and they then come back to me to say they've accepted another game that they thought was better than the game I gave them...you can take it to the bank I will remember that. Their next game from me will be only when I absolutely have to use them. And I can tell you that most assignors feel the same way. We treat officials the way thery treat us. Fair's fair.

We like guys like you. :)

If we can work something out, fine. But if you just tell me you're dumping your assigned game, well, you reap what you sow.

When it comes down to that plum playoff assignment at the end of the year....and I have my choice of 2 officials with fairly equal ability....and one official was dumping games on me during the year...guess who I'm giving the playoff game to. Yup...the RichMSN's of the world.

I wish our state office saw it that way.

And that is the real answer.

Here, it is accepted practice to turn back a HS game for a college game. I've done it but not same day. Not sure how late would really be OK.

No matter how busy of a day it is, with enough notice, there is at least someone who can double up.

The only people that can answer are the people you are working for on a particular game that you plan to give back. To some 48 hours is enough, to others that would be too soon. To some a week is too soon based on the reason you are giving back the game. I know an assignor (who has since passed) that did not like anyone to give back high school games in his conference for college assignments. He would scratch you or pull you immediately. That was just his thing and his right as he was assigning the games.

Peace

Exactly. Some people wonder why other people seem to be getting the better assignments when their abilities are similar (maybe even a little better). You would think they would figure it out. You take care of your assignor when they're in a spot and they'll remember it. You cause them grief, they're remember it. Guess who is most likely to get that call when a good opportunity comes up.

I think it really depends on the relationship you have with your assignor. I had a JVB upgraded to a VB yesterday by my secondary assignor. My primary assignor called about 10:30 last night to see what I had that night. He thanked me and then about half an hour ago, he called wondering if I could do a DH tonight as he had someone back out. I will leave earlier and know that I am with a rookie, but I don't mind giving back as I had received earlier in my career. This assignor has been very good to me and the only turn backs I have had were due to a death in the family and leaving for a business trip early in the morning. That was a 10 pm game, so he understood.

I have had other situations when an opportunity to get a VB game and turning back a JV game was met with vitriol. But, if you have a good relationship built up with the assignor, you can work through things.

When in Rome..............
 

This year we were told anything inside 24 hrs (unless under exigent circumstances) you get "fined" your game check.

Since 1988...

I have NEVER turned a game back in.

I have NEVER refused an assignment.

I have NEVER refused a game as a fill-in.

:D

I had to do two of those for yesterday when one of my assignors did not realize he had me scheduled for two games at two different levels. ;)

Peace

While I have no doubt that you put some thought (probably a LOT of thought) into these considerations, the actual switching of assignments takes less than 5 minutes if you use the Arbiter or something similar. Yes, I'm sure you'd rather not have to do it, but it's just not that hard to do, is it?

I have so much respect for you, I hope you know that; but it's a little sad to me that you feel this way. As an assignor, I know that I would want to have good officials working my games. But I hope that I would also want those officials to progress as far as their abilities would take them. And in order to do that, you have to make yourself available to take a higher level game.

There is a D3 assignor outside my local area, who I get no games from, but I occasionally work with some of his officials. He has progressed in his own officiating career about as far as possible. But he punishes officials who turn back his D3 game for a D2 game. Do you suppose he got as far as he did without an assignor or two helping him out, rather than holding him back? Yet, he says, "If you turn back my game for a D2 game, forget about the postseason". His guys hate him.

I don't know most assignors. But I can tell you that none of my assignors (including my D2 assignor) feels that way. I have been very fortunate, I guess, to have assignors who have operated with the understanding that the higher level game gets the higher priority.

Since 2001, when I started college varsity. . .

I've probably turned back an average of 1 game per season.

I refused 6 just this year. I sent my D3 assignor my D2 dates and he gave me games on them anyway. I always refuse HS or D3 scrimmages if they're more than a half-hour away.

I think I'm actually with you on this one. :)

1) Sometimes you may have to change several other assignments to get the match-up that you want. Some officials just don't mesh that well with some of their confreres. I haveta keep them away from each other where possible. And the game might dictate a fairly strong officiating crew, which means that I have to factor that in also. Can't have 3 U's on a game like that. It just aint that easy all the time, Scrappy. Sometime? Yes.

2) Please note that I specifically talked about officials who inform me that they're giving back the game without bothering to even try to discuss it with me first. If they phone and do discuss it, I don't have a problem with anybody switching to a better game. But if you don't want to talk to me and explain the circumstances, well, pardon the language, but to heck with you. To heck, I say! Also please note that I tell anyone who does have a college schedule to send me a copy of their schedule as soon as they get it. That way I can work around it.

not quite like this...
 

I think this, like everything, is regional. I don't have one HS assignor. I have about a dozen conference commissioners who assign and I usually have (at most) 4 games a season from each commissioner (with one exception, where I work about 10). Here you simply can't dump a game back into an assignor's lap unless you want to pay the consequences -- if you secure a qualified sub and bring that name to the conversation, then the commissioner doesn't really care, for the most part. Our games are scheduled well in advance, though -- I just picked up a game in 2013, for example. Our assignors don't try to pick and choose the *best crew* for the *best game* because who knows what the best game will be 3 years from now?

I get off more than my fair share of games. I travel for a living and if a work trip comes along I can't weasel my way out of, I have to turn back games. Officiating doesn't pay the mortgage, after all.

I have no goal of being a fulltime college official. So unlike others here, I would look at a small college game 3 hours from the house and a HS game 15 minutes from the house and pick the HS game *every time*. This is what I did in baseball, and it frustrated the college assignor when I told him, "No, thanks, I already have a HS DH." Funny thing was, it never meant he wouldn't call me -- I just don't think he was used to someone telling him that a little old HS varsity game meant just as much to me as a small college game. Well, it did and it still does.

Just Curious................
 

Is that in your boards by - laws or is that what the assigner says he is going to do ???

BTW - are you in Cardinal ???

Here, you can get fined for any turnback after the game has been accepted in arbiter.

The assigner in my last association didn't use arbiter, schedules came out in paper packets, and he gave a deadline of about a week after the schedule was released. Any turnback after that would mean a fine.

Further games are not assigned to an official until the fine is paid. Whether it's in the bi-laws or not, I don't know. It's not an area I care to use for wave-making, to be honest.

A lot of great responses................
 

Hey guys, I appreciate how everyone responded. I think part of the equation / solution is what kind of mentality does the assigner have.

Some assigners assign based on availability ( most hs assigners) and some
assigners assign on ability.

I think 48 hrs is reasonable, unless it is the DeMatha / Gonzaga game in DC or
the Christ The King / St. Raymond's game in NYC.

I know guys that wouldn't work a DII or DIII game if they were assigned a high profile hs game.


Sorry to you guys out in the midwest, the games I referenced are some big time catholic school games on the east coast.

Most college games I work are the same distance of the high school games I work. So that part is not an issue for me. I also like to be challenged. Many high school games do not challenge me. ;)

Peace

Most (emphasis on most, not all) of the assignors I have worked for understand the :higher level" turnbacks. I think what ticks most assignors off is 1)not communicating the turnback in a timely manner, and 2)turning back a game for a "better" game at the same level. IOW, giving back one Boys Varsity game for a different Boys game from a different assignor.

Not a good idea, IMO.

Depends on the league, I'm sure. But you know the geography -- I have two D3 schools (maybe 3-4, but I'm too lazy to look it up) within an hour of my house, which is why I've never really cared about working college basketball. I'd drive farther in the summer, which is why I did baseball for a few years before I got annoyed with the drive, but in the winter the thought of driving 3 hours through a blizzard isn't appealing.

I am not begrudging you at all about wanting to work a high school game over a college game. That is a very common situation for most officials, especially when they think working college has requirements are too much like the travel. And yes the travel most of the time is very long. And I do know that if you work for the right assignor at the D3 level in your area, you are going 3 and 4 hours one way to work games. Not fun when you have to go in a blizzard as well. And this is why when the baseball season starts, I refuse to go very far for college games. I just have the opportunity to work games very close without having to work go an hour to work a game in that sport. Basketball is a little more competitive and it is harder to work those same games during the basketball season.

Peace

Perhaps I wouldn't mind the travel, but to be quite honest, I hate driving and I travel a lot in my day job. I've flown from Madison to Minneapolis in the winter for business meetings because the thought of driving 4 hours in the snow (potential snow) is completely unappealing.

I do agree with that. I would probably be tired of that as well. My life style is such where I am going 3 hours back to my hometown. I cannot stand it as well and it gets old. But my goals have not changed so I am willing to do that now. I cannot say I would do that 5 years from now. It also helps when you are single and have no children. Not everyone can do what I do when it comes to officiating based on my family situation.

Peace

My personal cut off for a varsity game high school game is a week. If you give an assignor less notice than that, it may be difficult for them to find someone with the experience and skills for that particular game. Anythinig lower than that, I would think a couple of days is ok, but I would not want to do it often if that is an assignor I want to continue to work with.

The actual day would matter around here. I Friday would be nearly impossible to cover a game considering how many people are already working. A Tuesday would be really easy to cover because not everyone plays. Someone is not working that night.

Peace

1. Says they're going to do.

2. No.

PM me if you want

Our Arbiter is set that you "automatically accept the game" when you open Arbiter (I think), I know it's automatic. Then you have to call or email the Assignor to turn it back.

Not a fan of that feature. :(

Ouch. We get an email with a deadline to accept/reject.

I have actually been in this situation. I had a falling out with the assigner of the Washington DC Catholic league when I called to turn back a game. I did this nearly a month before the game and it was for a college game! The game I turned back was for another one of his leagues, not the Catholic league. I stood my ground and told him what he was doing wasn't right with the early notice I gave him - he took all my high school games. He called me the next day and gave me more/better games than he originally gave me. I ended up doing a lot of those Catholic league games and we got along great after that.

Decisions, Decisions ???
 

Same here.

Same here. If you reject the game, it automatically marks the day as blocked. I don't remember for sure, but I think you might not be able to clear the block it sets.

Ours is set up the same way. I don't care for it, but it is how it's done and it works, so oh well. I wish we would at least get a day or two to decline it if we wanted to. I have several assignors for college baseball, and all of them use the accept/decline feature on the Arbiter.

Yep -- and I'm not a fan of that feature, either.

I'd forgotten about that, that's how it is here, too. I've had to email the assigner when I inadvertently turned down a game so he could unblock and re-assign.

Only with the Disney assignor have I seen that feature used. My other assignors have a 3-5 day window to accept or reject the assignment.

I understand why our assigners use it. It prevents JV officials from turning back games in the hopes of getting a better assignment for that night later. It works well when your assignments all come from one assigner. The two times I had a legitimate reason to unblock a night, the assigner was more than willing to help out.

Whistle While You Work ...
 

Is this the guy? I think I've met him, but in California, at Disneyland.

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbn...ce5b161d5477f2

Re: Assignments ...
 

I am very fortunate in terms of getting assignments. I only work with two assigners, one who assigns all my high school games, and another who assigns my Catholic middle school games.

The high school assigner is my primary assigner. His assignments always, always, always, take top priority.

My Catholic middle school assigner also believes that high school assignments be given the highest priority. If we have been assigned a Catholic school game, and a few hours before said game we receive a last minute high school assignment, then all concerned know that the high school assignment is accepted, and the Catholic middle school assigner will get a last minute fill in official. What's makes this really sweet is that my Catholic middle school assigner can "see" my high school assignments on Arbiter, and thus avoid conflicts.

I just wanted to ask you, Jurassic, what you think about this same situation when an assignor gives no respect to anyone. I'm in a situation where the assignor does not wish to know anyone that he assigns unless you go to his camp in the summer. I cannot attend his camp due to my real job. He willingly assigns me Frosh and JV games, but will not assign me Varsity until I fork over the money to attend his camp (and even then it's not a guarantee). I do not turn back many games, as I feel like that's not fair. However, this season he is assigning games in two-week blocks rather than the entire season. (He's a college ref and college assignor as well.) I officiate for two other assignors in my area and am moving up in their ranks as I am doing many varsity games with them while filling my schedule with the other guy. I just got a boys varsity this Tuesday and turned back a girls JV. My biggest issue is that this assignor NEVER returns emails or phone calls. I have NEVER spoken to the man on the phone. I got one email when I joined and that's been it. The only response I get when I turn back a game is the Aribter telling me I've been removed. So...I guess I don't feel too badly about giving back a game when there's no real respect there.

I'm always willing to learn and be taught, however...what do you think? I'm not going to do a mass turn back and I feel I should fulfill my assignments, but in this case, I also want to show the guys that are assigning me varsity that I want to work for them. Good thing is I know the other two assignors well and work on their crews with them. (I'm a fill-in for them sometimes and work with them on others.) So...whatcha think?

I think that the assignor you described is an azzhole. Assigning should basically be merit-based with other factors used when needed. My advice is to work as much as possible with the 2 assignors that seem to agree with that. As for the other clown? Tough situation. Unfortunately, you'll probably just have to live with it if you want to work some games for that particular guy. But I personally can't see one damn thing wrong with you treating that particular assignor the same way that he's been treating you. T'hell with his camp; that's extortion. If you get a call from one of the other assignors, help them out. It works both ways. From your description, they'll help you out.

Just don't let him get to you, whatever you do. Just because one assignor is a dickhead doesn't mean we all are.

Good luck with your career. You do have the right attitude imho fwiw.

Most people hate working for the guy (myself included and unless you're on the inside) but he assigns the biggest association in our area (16 school league). I'm working on getting other contacts, but it takes time.

Thanks for the advice. I've been officiating for 12 years or so, but the politics here are rough. I agree with the extortion comment...thought that for awhile. I officiated in the Salem, OR association when I started out and they had the varsity officials come a bit early for their game to rank us and give us pointers. Rating system from 8-1 with different levels associated with each number. Guess I had it pretty good there! :) Would LOVE to see that again someday!

answer is not always the same
 

it is circumstantial and depends upon
your relationship with the assignors
whether you are climbing the ladder (your status)
how many times you've helped the assignors in the past
etc etc etc
if your area has extra officials the turned back game can be filled easily
if you know the assignor will have trouble covering, don't accept