Timeout/Layup = technical foul
 

My partner shared a game-end snafu situation with me last night. His partners at his game all had a different opinion on how best to handle it. Thought I would share...

5 seconds left in game, Team A up by three with the ball, Team B fouls to stop the clock (no bonus). Team B coach calls timeout.

Here's where it gets interesting:

Team A player (guy who got fouled) casually dribbles to basket and takes a layup on the way to the bench for timeout.

R calls technical foul.

Then...Team B makes one of two technical free throws, gets the throw-in at halfcourt , and makes a game winning 3-point shot to win the game.

Team A coach goes ape, throws clipboard, whole 9 yards.

Would you call a technical for the layup?

He's That Guy ...
 

For your information, I'm not talking about Marlo Thomas' boyfriend, Donald Hollinger.

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbn...a05e&index=ch1

On a written rules exam, this is correct. Can't practice during dead balls, except pregame, and at halftime.

That being said. I guess that he wants to be "that guy". I never want to "that guy" again. Once was enough (punched ball, not in a crowd).

About thirty years ago we had a college game between two small colleges. Team A wins by one at the buzzer. A1 dunks the ball to celebrate, right in front of the officials. Technical foul for dunking a dead ball. Team B went on to win. All over the news. I don't do college ball, but nevertheless, I never want to be "that guy".

What is that old saying, "don't do anything to make them remember you?" I think that applies big time here. The best compliment we can recieve as officials is to not be even noticed.

Nope, I'm not making this call.

Oh? :confused:

Maybe on an IAABO exam.....:D

Can you find me a rules citation anywhere that states it is a "T" for practicing during a dead ball?

There's no penalty listed 2-7-4. It's a "don't do that". Maybe you're confusing that with dunking a dead ball. That is a "T".

Let's say that this player wanted to practice foul shots during the timeout. We're certainly not going to allow that. Nor would I allow a layup either.

I have no problems whatsoever with issuing a technical foul for the layup.

However, for me, the first time is a reminder of the rule. :cool:

That's the guy that I'd be.

You have no rules justification to issue a technical foul. It's that simple.

Doing something like that cannot be explained away if somebody complains either.

Absolutely ridiculous advice.

Again, you did not read what I wrote.

Here it is again:

"However, for me, the first time is a reminder of the rule."

A reminder is a warning. That means that my call is no direct call to a Technical foul. For you to read into what I said that I would issue a T without a warning is inappropriate. Please don't put words into my mouth.

Dunkin' Donuts ...
 

Your right. It doesn't state it directly. I was confusing a dunk with practicing. How foolish of me.

NFHS 2-7-4: The officials shall conduct the game in accordance with the rules. This includes: Prohibiting practice during a dead ball, except between halves.

NFHS 10-3-3: A player shall not: Grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent
injury; dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

This may be a stretch:

NFHS 10-3-5: A player shall not: Delay the game by acts such as:
Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer
official when a whistle blows.

You have no problems issuing a technical foul for the lay-up? That is what you wrote, Juggler, and that is what I commented on.

I don't know how you think I'm mis-reading that sentence. I sureasheck have problems issuing a technical foul for the lay-up. That's because there isn't any rule I can hang my whistle on to do so.

Please tell me how I'm mis-reading a statement like that?

Or are you really agreeing that a "T" can't be immediately called without a warning being issued first? It's gotta be one or the other. If so, we then do agree and I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Your turn.

And it's a stretch because imo if the rulesmakers wanted to to identify this as a specific delay of game problem, they would have done so by either including it as one of the DOG warnings or adressed it directly as they did on a play like a defender touching the ball OOB on a throw-in while the thrower is holding it.

Go ahead and comment on everything I said, including my ruling.

Then get back to me.

Lah me.

A reminder of which rule in particular????

And the implication in your statement is that if they do it again, you will issue a T.

So which rule are you going to remind them of after the first lay-up?

More to the point, however. . . How is this "practice" lay-up delaying the game?

If the player travels the length of the court, by-passing one or more officials along the way, and shoots a layup before heading to his bench, it could easily be considered delaying the game.

Had a partner call a T last year when, following the granting of a timeout, A1 (standing near that partner) launched a twenty foot shot then ended up heading to the bleachers. Partner gave him two chances to retrieve the ball and he refused.

Man, did I have a thing for Marlo Thomas. She, along with Sally Field, Annette Funicello and Cheryl Gervais (a girl in my 9th grade class) guaranteed I would marry a brunette.

?? How else would we do it?

I'd 2-7-4 and 10-3-5 would suffice to cover which "rule" was being violated.

HOWEVER, in this scenario, how do we know that the nearest official wasn't standing under the basket thus the player was justified in executing the lay up?;)

How?? :confused: The game is stopped for the next 30 or 60 seconds. Nothing is going to happen anyway. So how he delaying anything?

The inevitable?

Wow
 

IMHO it's absolutely HORRENDOUS judgment and unjustifiable to call a technical foul in the situation as described in the original post.

It's calls like that that give officials a bad name and fuels the misguided perception some have that officials are out of touch and take away from the game.

I can see a T in the case someone else described where a guy jacks a shot that goes under the bleachers or something and refuses to go get it after repeated request. But in the situation described, any official who would issue a T or even begin to justify a T, is not someone I would want to work with and someone who truly DOES NOT GET IT.

So why not let him shoot around for the next 30 or 60 seconds? ;)

This action is illegal. BillyMac quoted the proper rule about failing to pass the ball to the nearer official when it becomes dead. The proper penalty is a player technical foul for delaying the game. If you want to know exactly how, I would admit that is a tough explanation, but consider a two person crew. One official should be reporting the time-out and the other should be collecting the ball and heading to the ensuing throw-in spot. The coach of one of the teams may want to know this location before going into his huddle and drawing up a play. What if the player shooting the lay-up is from the other team and now this coach can't get his desired info in a timely manner because the official has to go collect the ball?

There was a POE or comment on this a few years ago when the editorial change was made in the language of this rule. I recall the NFHS making the point to not allow such behavior after the whistle.

My vote is WHACK.

Let me see if I can reply in like language.

Anyone who holds your opinion is not a REAL official just a fanboy or ex-coach who puts on a shirt and pretends. The official should not consider "the situation" and is not taking the game away from anyone. The misbehaving player is doing that. The REAL official properly does his job and penalizes such action with impartiality.

You are the one who gives officials a bad name.


How was that? Did you like those words?

How's that? Do I like those words?

Ok tough guy, I'm not going there with you. I stand by my humble opinion. I've been a sports fan (not a fan boy or whatever that is) since I was 4, and yes I use to coach, but guess what? I am a "REAL" official. I couldn't care less what you say about that.

If you don't think officials should "consider the situation" you're fooling yourself. That's called LIFE. In the situation the OP described giving a T takes the game away from the players and coaches and puts it on a POOR JUDGMENT call from an official. PERIOD.

I don't think that rule is applicable in the OP's sitch.

A time out is called. On the way to the bench, a player makes a lay-up. Is he delaying the game? That time-out is going to last 30 or 60 seconds regardless of the layup. If that player is delaying anything, it's a second or two of his own time at his bench, but that time-out will expire on time nonetheless.

Poor judgment? Maybe. Still, I've come to believe that "taking the game away" concept is myopic. A single play never, ever decides a basketball game. The collection of plays over 32, 40, or 48 minutes (overtime notwithstanding) determines the winner. To say a single play determines an outcome is to negate all the other work that players, coaches, and officials put into that game.

Can a single play loom larger in a close game? Certainly. Will people be more likely to remember a single, closing-minutes play or call? Naturally. Will a single play unilaterally decide a basketball game? Never. Realistically, it's always about the collection. I believe that's all too easily forgotten.

He!! to the..................... nnnnaaaaaaawwwww!!!!

Silly interpretation if someone wants to do that. If you do not like him doing it, tell him to knock it off. Problem solved and no one knows you are a silly person. Terrible ruling IMHO.

Peace

+1

1) I just opened up the 2000-01 rule book and the language was exactly the same. And I can't remember anything ever being issued about practicing during dead balls either. Can you furnish a cite to back this up? Including exactly what the NFHS said the penalty should be for not allowing such behavior after the whistle?

2) Gee, why aren't I surprised? It falls right in line with your insistence on it being OK to "T" up the crowd also if you feel like it, doesn't it? :rolleyes:

Don't get carried away with the "delaying the game" concept, bainsey. The rule doesn't mention that. It simply says that we should prohibit practice during a dead ball. Sooooooo....if a player makes a lay-up on the way to the bench, prohibit him from practicing- just like the rule book says. What the rule book doesn't state is that there is a specific penalty to be applied accompanying the prohibition of practicing.

Added To The Book A Few Years Ago ...
 

NFHS 2-7-4 is also known as the "Tim Donaghy Rule".

Then what's your position on this one, Nevada?

NFHS rule 5-12-5 states that players shall remain standing within the confines of the TO area during a 30-second TO. What do you do if the players sit down? WHACK? Note that the NFHS also made a point not to allow this particular behavior also.

What about 10-3-5b?

"ART. 5 Delay the game by acts such as: . . .
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in
play.
b. Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer official when a whistle blows.
c. The free thrower fails to be in the free-throw semicircle when the official is ready to administer the free throw unless the resumption-of-play procedure is in effect following a time-out or intermission.
d. Repeated violations of the throw-in, as in 9-2-10."

I think in both cases (the TO and the "practicing"), a T could reasonably be issued if the official directs the team/player to comply and they refuse. The fact that there's no specific penalty in the rules doesn't mean it can't be considered unsporting to disregard the official's instructions at this point.

Please read the entire thread. This rule is already on the discussion table.

I did read the entire thread, BillyMac did cite it but did not give a full reference, just somehow I did not see it initially :(, especially since it falls under Player Technical & the penalty for anything under 10-3 is 2 FTs & ball at division line for throw-in.

In the OP, the team A player casually decides to go for a layup, after the whistle was blown, while heading to bench for the TO.

Hence why I was asking about 10-5-3b since the player failed to immediately give the ball to the nearest official after the whistle was blown.

Really? Try again, you can start with Post #9, where BillyMac says this:

Try rereading my last post as I did an edit to it, stating I saw that BillyMac did post 10-5-3b. The only thing that was not posted was what the penalty is.

Because we don't always spell out the obvious.

LMAO So more questions can be asked & to make sure the OP learns.

But unlike Nevada, you wouldn't call an immediate "T" for practicing without directing the team/player to comply first before issuing the "T"? Correct? Same for sitting during a 30-second TO?

It's a matter of WHACK versus Warn'n'WHACK.

Yes, I'd warn/direct compliance first. I like a good cup of tea as much as the next guy, but I'll be working middle school forever around here if I start looking for Ts like this and stretching the rules to call them.

No, because in context, it was obvious that the penalty for the rule Billy quoted was a technical foul. No hidden reasoning at all.

What The **** Does An Asterisk Mean ???
 

I vote for the later, but only where the player, or players, are being real knuckleheads (I tried to type in some other words instead of knuckleheads but just kept getting a bunch of asterisks). Let's have a poll.

A better solution is to report the timeout & start the clock right away so his coach can chew him out for goofing off instead of coming to the bench.

What did A1 do with the ball after the lay-up?

Me, I'm telling A1 to bring me the ball. The situation would then be over.

Despite the various rulings, citations, etc....in the end, R=OOO

Would It Be Over ???
 

And, for sake of argument, if he didn't comply?

Can't find it, I am sure we don't start the timeout until ALL players have returned to the bench.

Got It Covered ...
 

IAABO Mechanics Manual: Page 79, I: State and signal to the timer to start the timing device when both teams are near their respective bench areas.

NFHS Manual, Page 38, 2.4.4.B.4: Within the reporting area, give the appropriate timeout signal again for the type of timeout (30 sec or 60 sec), verbally indicate the team color, verbally and visually give the player number or head coach (indicate by forming the shape of a “C” with the hand) making the request, and direct (visually/verbally) the timer to begin the timeout period.

And I don't even start this (NFHS) sequence until the teams are at their benches, considering I'm finding the other (non-calling) coach first and informing him/her whether it's a 30-second or 60-second timeout.

There's no way in God's green earth I'm whacking a kid over this. There's no delay -- I don't care where the basketball is until I've finished reporting the timeout and there's no way we're going to be delayed *that* long.

This does not address my question. How does one layup during the dead ball that starts a time-out delay the game? Maybe there is justification for a technical foul in this situation (although I don't think there is); but whatever the justification is, it CAN'T be that he is delaying the game.

And for those who say that the T is for failing to pass the ball immediately to the nearest official, you need to read the whole article. The T is for delaying the game by not passing the ball immediately to the nearest official. He's NOT delaying the game in any way.

There is no "delay" here. The only applicable rule is the one prohibiting practice during a dead ball. Technically speaking, this player has violated this rule and the penalty would be a technical foul. In practice, this would not be a good call unless it persisted.

Who's Gonna Show ???
 

I think that your missing Jurassic Referee's point. NFHS 2-7-4 (The officials shall conduct the game in accordance with the rules, this includes: prohibiting practice during a dead ball, except between halves) is part of Rule 2, Officials and Their Duties. There are no penalties listed for this rule. Fouls and Penalties are listed under Rule 10 and there is no rule, foul, or penalty for practicing during a dead ball under Rule 10.

I'm sure that Jurassic Referee will be along shortly to post something sarcastic, or, maybe, we'll get the newer, kinder, gentler, sweeter Jurassic Referee.

I am certainly not brewing up a pot of T here but I cannot wait for this myth to die a slow, miserable death.

Naw, JR is just waiting for Nevada's response.

Good point. Making the tough call is part of our job, and if you do that you will be noticed.

This isn't relevant to the enforcement of the play in question, but I thought I'd share this story from a game I had last year, to possibly shed some light on this "additional practice."

Boys 8th grade game...
I'm L in transition on a press break. A1 gets the ball and dribbles across half court and inside the 3-pt line to finish breaking the press. HC for A requests time out which my partner grants (I'm guessing the coach wanted the time out as soon as they crossed half court, but there was some delay in that communication).

A1 decides to take the final dribble and shoot, while B4 stands puts his hands up and steps in A1's path to stop him. A1 runs into B4 and is deflected to the side. All of this happened within a second or 2 following the whistle. In other words, I didn't think B4 explicitly sought contact or was acting unsportsmanlike.

A1 looks at me with a :eek: face, like I should have called a foul. He says "But he didn't let me get my free shot."

I was kind of surprised by his response, because I was always taught to give the ball to the official... I'm assuming it comes from watching all those NBA games where guys shoot the ball after the whistle every time. Now players are assuming that they get a free shot after every whistle.

thanks for catching that, there's a whole lot of real estate between the guy who calls a T here and the guy who cowers so as not to be noticed. Don't be either of those guys.

Not an option. :cool:

I'll make some time in the next couple of days to search my old materials and look for the change, but I believe that it used to say "when the ball becomes dead" and now says "when a whistle blows."

I don't know. I've seen a player willfully walk away from the official (see my post to that effect in this thread) telling him to get the ball. T was served, and the player later apologized at his coach's direction.

I don't ever run into such problems. Just something that doesn't happen in my games.

Probably not, but to say it's not an option is a bit of a stretch for most of us mortals. :D

Naw, why wait? Just give me a quick answer to this:

NFHS rule 2-7-4 prohibits practice during a dead ball. NFHS rule 5-12-5 prohibits players from sitting during a 30-second time-out. Neither rule has a penalty listed anywhere for it in the rule book or case book afaik. You are already on record in post #22 of this thread as stating that the penalty for practicing during a dead ball is an immediate technical foul with no warning. Would you also say that using the same logic the penalty for sitting during a 30-second time-out should be an immediate technical foul with no warning first either? Or if isn't an immediate "T", why isn't it? The rules are basically the same aren't they? They both explicitly prohibit players from doing something during the game without specifying a penalty if the players do so.

Hell, you shouldn't need to research anything to answer something as easy as that. Simply tell me if both rules...being similar... should be handled the same way..... and if not, whyinthehell not.

There are times when being perceived as an a-hole comes in handy. :cool: