UCLA vs. KU game
 

Anybody see the end of the UCLA/KU game last night? "Gutsy" call by the official with .7 seconds on the clock to send KU to the line in a tied ballgame.

Didn't see it.

We make "gutsy" calls all the time.

The time left in the game shouldn't have any bearing on whether to call it. If it was a foul with 70 seconds left, then it was a foul with .7 seconds left.

Lah me.

A foul is a foul is a foul, I don't care what time is on the coo coo clock.

Tell that to Ben Howland....

Via the LA Times:

UCLA Coach Ben Howland didn't contain his displeasure with the call after watching the replay on a computer in the locker room.

"Really, really a poor way to end the game on a call," Howland said. "Normally, you wouldn't make that kind of call at that point in the game unless it was very obvious, and from what I saw it was very disappointing to have the game end on that note."

Is Ben Howland the director of officiating for the conference and a coach?:eek:

Nope, just a coach understandably frustrated with a ticky-tack call deciding a game in which his kids fought hard throughout and battled back to tie.

The problem with refs wanting to hide behind the "a foul is a foul is a foul" argument and make the art of officiating black and white is the fact that this call literally decided the game. I guarantee you that similar "fouls" earlier in the game were let go. I'd venture a guess that there's a part of the official (Doug Sirmons) who wishes he hadn't blown his whistle.

Who else was in that officiating crew?

Scott Thornley & Tom O'Neill

The problem with the media and general public is on one instance, they want to "let the players on the floor decide the game." Then when there's an instance where a no call happens at the end of the game, we hear the usually dreck about us "swallowing our whistles" and that "a foul is a foul." A no-win situation.

Do I think the official who made the call regrets the whistle? I doubt it.

How about describing the play for those of us who didn't see it instead of just giving it the lame "ticky-tack" label.

Judge for yourselves....

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/

I can't, firewall only allows videos from YouTube and it's not on there. So pretend it's a non-media game and you are describing the play to your supervisor. :)

from the video provided, it does appear the UCLA player displaced the KU player who was reaching for the ball

You say "ticky tack," I say "tackle." If it had been a UCLA player in the same situation, the coach would have thought it was a great call. :shrug:

Fanboys are so boring.

UCLA hits a 3 to tie the game with 4 seconds to go. KU inbounds quickly, gets it across half-court, one of the Morris twins attempts to go up for a jumper but is cleanly stripped, which leads to a loose ball. KU's Mario Little and UCLA's Malcolm Lee both pursue. Both players have a hand on the ball with Lee's momentum creating contact with Morris.

Looks like a foul to me. If the UCLA player was under control then you would not put anyone in a situation to be called for a foul. If that is a foul in the first minute of the game, it is a foul in the last minute of the game.

Peace

I'm not arguing whether or not it's a foul, just the timing and severity of it.

If Sirmons holds his whistle, KU's bench and Bill Self probably briefly "ask" for a call and then move on to overtime.

Or you'd hear him complain about "a foul being a foul," and that officials can't "swallow their whistles."

"Let the players decide the game" vs. "swallow the whistle"...either way you're going hear a mouthful from the coach on the short end of the stick, so you might as well just call what you see and not worry about what's on the clock. :D

Does that mean you agree that had the play happened with 7 minutes to go, you'd agree it was a foul?

Sure, we miss calls (including calling "fouls" that aren't). But, anytime someone uses the "at that point in the game" argument, I tend to tune out.

If you want to discuss whether the contact rises to the level of a foul, then that's different (and, again, I didn't see the play, not am I likely to be able to).

The only POE in Men's basketball is "Call the game by the rules no matter the score or the situation." That is what they have asked the officials to do this year. So if this official does not call a foul that he thinks is a foul, then he will not be seen in the best light. And yes a play like this can and will affect his standing in the NCAA Tournament if he is eligible. So who cares what a coach thinks if in your judgment a foul should have been called. It either is a foul or it is not a foul. Who cares what time of the game it takes place?

Peace

Sounds like a foul on Lee...

Just because they both have a hand on the loose ball does not mean that one of them gets to knock the other one down.

If the contact had been created by the KU player, and the officials had NOT called it, Howland would be whining about the no-call, and Seddy would be posting on here about how bad the officials were for swallowing their whistles when it mattered. :rolleyes:

Sigh...fanboy season has officially arrived.:eek:

I'm interested to know what this "fanboy" term is all about?

And BTW, neither the KU or UCLA player was knocked down on the play.

Lets see....

Two 2009/2010 Final Four guys, a 2008/2009 National Championship official and about 3000 combined D1 games on that crew.

They kinda know what they are doing.

Having said that, for me, I wouldn't have been surprised if he would have passed but I am not shocked there was a whistle either.

Bottom line - Anyone can ref on youtube with a pause button

I think it was a 50/50 ball accompanied with a 50/50 call, and when you add to the fact that there is .7 seconds left in a tied game, then yes, I think the timing of the game is relevant.

Can you imagine this exact play deciding a National Championship?

It's a term that describes people who set an account up to talk about a specific play, typically involving a judgement call, many times slanted towards a team vs. the rule, only to never to be heard from again.

Are you that guy? Time will tell.

Watched it 5-6 times, first impression, no foul. After 3-4 time it's obvious defender moves hip into KU player. Would I have made that call? probably not, that's why I'm doing HS varsity games and this guy is on the big stage, he has the guts to make the right call. It's a foul at the 7 minute mark of the game and at .07 seconds of the game. Trust me Seddy, he's not looking to grab a call.

How much did you drop on the game? C-note? A dime? Chase a couple of NBA games to get even over the weekend.

By the way, We all have the same crummy view of the play. Three guesses who was right where he should be and had the best view.

You're right, all 3 are top-notch officials and I thoroughly enjoy watching them work. But are they above getting their calls analyzed? Should I not use their real-life instances to improve my officiating?

In my opinion, if I was in Sirmons' shoes, I would hope that I would have held my whistle.

From Wikipedia: Fan Boy

Fanboy/fangirl

Fanboy is a term used to describe a male who is highly devoted and biased in opinion towards a single subject or hobby within a given field. Fanboy-ism is often prevalent in a field of products, brands or universe of characters where very few competitors (or enemies in fiction, such as comics) exist. An example is the market for CPUs for PCs, where AMD and Intel together hold a market share of 99.6% (as of Q1 2009). In this market, users of home computers realistically only have a choice between two brands, and hence, a fight over which is better easily ensues. In this field, an "Intel fanboy" prefers CPUs made by Intel, and might aggressively defend their supposed superiority compared to the other brand(s), be skeptical or in denial about negative reviews of the product, and exert a high level of brand loyalty. The same brand war ensues when comparing video card brands Nvidia and ATI, which together dominate the video card market.

The term originated in comic book circles, to describe someone who was socially insecure and used comics as a shield from interaction, hence the disparaging connotations. Fanboys are often experts on minor details regarding their hobbies, such as continuity in fictional universes, and they take these details extremely seriously. The term has also been applied to criticize perceived fan elitism. The term itself is often used in a derogatory manner by less serious fans of the same material. Nevertheless, self-labeling usages of the term have been noted; in the songs of the fannish parody musician Luke Ski, many characters proudly consider themselves fanboys.

The term is usually used by and applied to people in their teens or 20s; an age group which is typically found pursuing geeky hobbies obsessively. Within this group, common objects of deference for fanboys are TV shows, movies, anime, cars, video game consoles, video games, music, operating systems, trains, home computers (in earlier decades), MMORPGs, ISPs, software and computer hardware companies.

Peace

Trust me, I'm not that guy. I'm far from a UCLA fan trolling on here looking for sympathy. Just a fan of college basketball and watching top-notch college officials do their jobs. I'm a 7th year HS official who uses this forum from time to time as a resource. Are you going to see me ever have 1,000 posts? Probably not! But I enjoy the sport. I enjoy the art of officiating. And I enjoy the intricacies of how the two intertwine.

<object height="385" width="640">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rjbwldO2H_o?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="385" width="640"></object>

For those that can't view it from ESPN.

Problem being your initial posts in this thread contain no analysis. A sarcastic reference to a "gutsy" call is not analysis. Describing a foul as "ticky-tack" with no further description is not analysis.

Sue me for thinking that this play is a nice teaching moment and is worthy of discussion....

edit

You must be talking about a different play than the rest of us then, as the KU player clearly gets knocked down and ends up sliding on the court. :rolleyes:

I was about to say that. No way you should let a defender (no matter how long he'd been a defender) hip check a shooter to the floor (even an off-balance shooter) on this play.
The idea that you shouldn't call this because a no-call sends it into overtime is just stupid.
Thinking it's probably a foul but wanting to no-call it because you'll get less grief is just cowardly.

Worthy of discussion? Absolutely. Worthy of commending the official for making the call that would get him the most grief. I'd much rather work with that guy than some numb nutz who's scared to make a tough call at the end of the game.

It's not the number of your posts that matters; it's the quality.

And if the foul hadda gone for UCLA, you would have told everybody what a great call it was.


In the words of that noted humanitarian and Nobel Peace Prize winner, Mother Teresa.."Piss off,fanboy."

The KU player goes to the floor not because of a foul, but because he's trying to launch a desperation shot....

That's not how the official on the floor saw it; nor is it how I saw it. Apparently, I'm not the only one here who saw it my way. Can you say the same thing?

Take the team names out of the equation. I sit in Quincy, IL. You think I'm a UCLA fan?!?!

You didn't bring this to the forum as a teaching tool, you b!tched about a call without discussing what actually happened.

The contact occurs as Little is shooting the ball, that is not a "loose ball" situation.

I live in Virginia and I'm a UCLA fan so that argument isn't very convincing either.

Just as recently as 11-12 months ago you were asking basic questions about backcourt and travelling calls so I have to doubt the veracity of this statement.

I was there twice this past week. :D

And here is part of the proof. Quincy High School

Peace

Then he should be using you as a teaching tool.

Seddy from Missouri + not liking a "ticky tacky call" at that point in the game + game won by Missouri's arch and hated rival = fanboy.

(full disclosure - I grew up in Kansas and am a KU fan.)[

I will put it this way. That is a different part of the state. ;)

Peace

Well, you're sureashell acting like one with the nonsense you're spewing. You sureashell aren't thinking like any real official would think. Anyone that thinks that calling a foul...any foul... should take into consideration the time left in the game should be up in the stands. You shouldn't be anywhere near the court with a whistle. You're dangerous.

That plain enough? :)

I actually thoroughly enjoy Bill Self and his coaching style. Before he went to Illinois, I wish Mizzou would have hired him over Quin Snyder. If anything, as a Big XII fan, I'd be rooting for KU in this Pac-10/Big XII challenge.

Gee, Jeff, why is everybody (including the coach) pointing at you? :D

Dandruff?

You're right, Jurassic. I'll hang up my whistle. My stance that this is a give-or-take call is completely way off base. That's why it's included in headlines across the country this morning....

RIP, Ron Santo! Oh wait, I can't say that. I'm a Cardinals' fan.

You don't get it. The fact that it's in the headlines means nothing with regard to whether it was a solid call or some "50-50 call." All that means is that the call had a direct impact on a big game and a popular coach was upset about it.

The opinion of officials on here, who often disagree with one another, has been unanimous (save you).

Rut, thats a classic....gotta love cheering sections.

And that's the difference. Officials think one way. Fanboys don't think.

The call didn't decide the game. Neither did the foul. The player that maintained their composure and sank the free throws decided the game. Period!

Are you serious? The hip check contact by the UCLA player - in your opinion - had no effect on the KU player? The KU player simply fell to the ground all by hisownself??

WOW!

ANd Snaqs...quit misquoting me all the time!:mad::p

Hey, I was just following instructions. Have you changed your mind so quickly?

They are likely saying, "You suck." And that night I probably did. :D

Peace

I know. And I will be buying copies of that picture. LOL!!!

Peace

I wouldn't suggest coming here for any type of feel good discussion. Just straight talk.

That one picture shows more fans than I have at 80% of my games.

I think they're saying "Now that's a great official!"

By the way, I am hoping for the day when the "longs" (can't call them shorts) on players like the one in the picture will be passe'!

I always hate the saying that the officials decided the game. The UCLA player fouled the shooter. The officials didn't decide the game, that player did.

No way in hell you are an official. Your ignorance of backcourt and travelling rules proves that out.

By the way, you owe me an answer to my question on your most recent thread.

Why wouldn't it be?

Well Snaqs, don't hold your breath b/c I would miss your contributions to the forum.

This 7 year high school official won't be answering any of those types of questions.

Well, I thought I'd give him the chance to explain why he had such a basic question; especially now that I "know" he's been working high school ball for 7 years.

This post sounds like a fan boy complaining because his team lost.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, Kaaaayyyyy UUUUUUUUU!!!!

Double whistle
 

I am amazed that all of you have watched this video and no one has mentioned that there was a double whistle on this play!

Watch T in the video. He is running to the play with a fist in the air.

BTW, I am not a Rock Chalker.

Good find. You can clearly see the trail official with a fist up when the contact occurs.

But I'm sure the T would like to take that whistle back if he had a second chance. :rolleyes:

Our assignor wants us, as T or C, to stay with the play such as this one, that crosses the court, to the other side of the lane. The fact that T had a call on this play seems consistent with that idea.
A second thought: I study the game not just in the books, but by watching parts of as many college games as I can. Some of the best officials have become recognizable, and that's the case with this game.
Finally, with a video such as this one, I watch it from the camera angle, but try to imagine what the view was from the calling official's position. From the camera angle, on this play, at the speed of the game, it's difficult to make a firm judgement. But from the position of either T or C, the call is apparent.
I guess that's why we work the games from the floor and not the stands. . .

The opinion of this guy counts.
 

Ben Howland contacts NCAA about foul


<cite class="source"> By Peter Yoon
ESPNLosAngeles.com
Archive </cite>
UCLA coach Ben Howland said Saturday that he spoke with John Adams, the NCAA coordinator of men's basketball officials, about the foul called against Malcolm Lee. in the waning moments of the Bruin's 77-76 loss Thursday at Kansas.



"I gave them my two cents," Howland said. "But the game is over. They won, we lost. We're moving forward now. Bad calls happen it's just unfortunate it would happen at that point in the game where it would decide a game."
The score was tied, 76-76, with less than a second remaining when Lee was called for a questionable foul that sent Kansas' Mario Little to the free throw line. He made one with 0.7 seconds to play and Kansas won the game.
Adams told ESPN.com's Andy Katz that Doug Sirmons, the official who blew the whistle, made the right call.
"The refs reacted properly," said Adams said. "The only argument you can make is whether or not it was a foul. It's a foul. The Kansas kid has control of the ball. It's incredibly unfortunate to end the game like that. But I've looked at the tape this morning and Doug called the foul like he's supposed to."
Howland said he received several phone calls expressing sympathy, but is content to have spoken his peace and is ready to put that game behind him.
"It's over," Howland said. "There's no going back and changing anything. We had a six-point lead in the second half. We've got to do a better job being able to handle that. That's the biggest thing."

Be careful, you're starting to sound like someone I know. ;)

Heh, I wondered if that would catch your attention. :D

Welcome to the club. I'll make sure you get a copy of the newsletter and our secret decoder ring.

Yeah, that's what the Vast Rightwing Conspiracy told me when I crossed over, and I've yet to see so much as a form letter to welcome me.

Did you "fix" that for Yoon, or is the error in the original? :eek:

Damn homophones. :D

snip

Yeah -- the one call (even if it was wrong) "decided the game."

It's like the coach had a strategy -- okay, we'll give up the 6 points and take it to OT -- and then the d*** refs decided to ruin it.

After All, It's The 21st Century ...
 

Hey. Sexual orientation should have nothing to do with this.

What, you think 'homophone' means "sounds gay"? :p

That was a direct cut and paste, so all mistakes are those of the author of the article.
The professional writer.