Travel? Loss of Possession?
 

A1 is dribbling and jumps into the air. Somehow the ball slips from his grasp above his head and hangs in the air for a split second. While the ball is separated, his hands/arms are moving "frantically" in order to re-grab the ball. He then grabs the ball and lands.

Loss of possession therefore legal?

Or Travel?

Thanks!

It would be a travel as you described it.

If it had been tapped out of his hands by an opposing player, or touched by someone else while in the air, then no violation. If he is under the basket and you have some doubt about whether it was a shot attempt, then consider it a shot - and no violation.

What is the rule reference for losing control and having to be by an opponent? Is it not possible to fumble in the air? Just wondering.

4-21: Fumble is accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a players grasp.

Thanks

I disagree
 

A player can gather the ball and jump off of one foot and land on both feet and not be a travel. Why does a moementary loss of the ball matter? The dribble ended when the player gathered the ball. The temporary loss of possession adds nothing to this as far as I can see. I need a rule reference to change my mind.

If you think it was a fumble, no violation.
If you think it was a try for goal, no violation.
If you think he purposefully let it go and grabbed it, travel.

Note, a defensive touch is not required for the first two.

Okay. Thanks Snaqs. Was making sure I was thinking correctly.

No problem. Also note, if the player had used his dribble, he cannot dribble again unless <strike>the defense</strike> another player touched the ball while it was loose or caused it to come loose.

not sure i agree with the last one
 

For it to be travel, he would have to drop the ball to the floor and then be the first to touch it, wouldn't he?

IMO the last has to do with intentionally. A legal fumble has to be unintentionally dropping the ball or it slipping for grasp. So therefore A1 never lost control legally of the ball resulting in a travel if he came back down to the floor.

If he is fumbling the ball, what diff does it make. He is allowed to go and retrieve the ball. Like Snags said, if he regains control of the ball and starts another dribble then we don't have a travel, we got an illegal dribble

yes but
 

There is a case play that is partially on point. I don't have my book to give you the number, but it goes something like this. A1 goes up to shoot and seeing that his shot will be blocked drops the ball. The ball hits the floor. The ruling is a travel if he is the first to touch the ball. I see the OP as being similar. The OP doesn't say the ball touched the floor and that he was the first to touch it. If so, then I would agree with the travel call. But if he lost possession intentionally and regained possession in the air and the ball didn't touch the floor, I've got nothing.

You mean unintentionally, like in fumble.

They're travels for different reasons. In the case play, it's a travel for lifting the pivot foot before starting a dribble.

In the OP (assuming purposeful release) it's a travel for jumping and returning to the floor with the ball.

It could have been considered an illegal dribble under the old case play, but the case play for the player throwing the ball in the air and moving before catching it (no bounce) declares it a travel now.

The case play is 4.44.3 A. This has to do with dropping the ball to the floor. In this case the ball was dropped to the floor while a player was in the air and they were the first to touch it after it hit the floor which constituted a dribble. And you cant have a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

My play: the player never dropped the ball to the floor. He simply came back down with the ball after the fumble while he was mid air.

No I meant intentionally
 

There is no rule support that I know of that says a player can't INTENTIONALLY lose control of the ball while in the air. The case play that I sited above says its only a violation if the ball touches the floor and the player is the first too touch it. Again the case play isn't a 100% similar to the OP but it is close enough in my mind to give us some guidance. If the player intentionally loses control but regains it before he and the ball touches the floor I still have nothing.

Correct.
 

I was using the case play to give us some guidance. There is some similarities in the two. Both have the player intentionally losing control. In the case play it wasn't a violation until the ball touched the floor and the player was the first too touch it. I would say the same would apply here. Since he gained control of it before he or the ball touched the floor, I've got nothing.

I see your point now I think. Your saying, in my words: A1 jumps into the air but intentionally for whatever reason loses the ball or lets go of the ball. He then recovers it and lands. Is this correct?

Yes
 

You are correct.

1. A1 throws a lob pass towards A2.
2. A2 doesn't see the pass and cuts towards the basket.
3. A1 runs to retrieve pass before it hits the floor.

Call?

But a fumble is unintentionally. Therefore how can he be able to land and it be legal if the so called "fumble action" was intentional?

NFHS..... rule4-41 art. 3 and 4. The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball. The try ends when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

Rule 4-44 art. 3 after coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot the pivot foot may be lifted but not returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for the goal.

rule 4-21 A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips fro from the players grasp.

So using all these rules I would say that if the player dribbled and then shot he definitely established a pivot foot. He then did the motion that habitually preceded the release of the ball. But because the try was not deemed unsuccessful do to it not becoming dead or hitting the floor he would have placed the pivot foot back on the floor with the ball in his hands causing the travel. If he would have let the ball hit the floor causing the try to be unsuccessful then no travel.

Again I don't agree
 

SUppose this happend on a jump stop. The dribble ended when the player gathered the ball. He then jumps off one foot. He loses control momentarily and regains it before he comes down on both feet. This is not a travel.

Think this through for a second. Do all tries end by hitting the floor or with a dead ball?

by rule yes

Look at it this way, if the play would have been legal without the momentary release of the ball, it's legal.

If it would have been illegal without the momentary release of the ball, it's still illegal.

This all assumes intentional release, a fumble is a different animal of course.

Really? So A1 makes a try for goal.
It hits the rim, and B1 gets the rebound.

Knowing that player or team control do not exist during a try, are you still saying the try is still ongoing after B1 gets the rebound?

Correct, as described this is a legal jump stop regardless of the fumble.

The point of that rule is that a "try" ends when the ball hits the floor. IOW, if A1 launches a shot from half court just before the horn, the basket cannot count if it bounces in.
The same holds true in the case of an offensive violation or player control foul.

there is a comma in there... The try ends ewhen the throw is successful, when it is CERTAIN the thrown ball is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

The motion that preceeds the release of the ball and then the landing I would believe is where the violation comes from. If he wouldn't have fumbled the ball and did the same thing, it would be a travel. So the fumble shouldn't mean anything.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying if the player fumbles the try, it would still be a travel if he catches it and lands? The fumble absolutely means everything here.

I'm sorry but somewhere I got lost on this dicussion. Anybody wanna let me in on the new debate?

The case play here is 4.44.3D, which when read in concert with 4.44.3A tells you it's a travel if the player jumps to shoot, intentionally releases the ball, then catches it before it hits the floor. Whether he lands before the ball is caught is irrelevant, also.

I absolutely agree with that! I would think that fumbling the ball and landing with out the ball hitting the floor would be the same travell call

You would :(

Indiana...what do you mean by that?

Can you describe where his feet were when the last dribble occurred or the last touch occurred? Based on your description, the player was dribbling the ball and jumped into the air. You did not indicate that the player picked up his dribble -- you simply indicated that the ball slipped from his grasp (on the dribble or did he attempt to pick up the dribble with both hands). You then indicated that the ball ended up over his head (is this a case of a high dribble?). Doing all of this while in the air. Where his feet were when the last touch was made is relevant. If he does all of this while his feet are in the air, I cannot see how the play can be ruled a travel -- assuming the feet were off the ground when the last dribble occurred.

By definition, per 4-44, "traveling is moving the foot or feet in any direction in excess of the prescribed limits while HOLDING the ball." I find it hard to see a travel in this play unless the feet are doing more than has been described.

Okay lets see if I can be clearer. He was dribbling. Stopped. Jumped. And somehow the ball was fumbled in the judgement of the officials (dont disagree they had a great look at it) and the ball continued to go upward in direction. It wasnt a shot. The player then regained control of the ball. And landed. Hope this helped.

Back to a travel call then. He left the floor in control of the ball. His legal options while in the air are pass or shoot. He came back down in control of the ball, he had not passed or shot - travel is the violation.

What about the fumble? Which is accidental loss of player control. If he loses player control on his fumble how can you have a travel when he re-gains the ball and lands?

Wrong, the fumble changes everything.

And you're wrong.

Snaq, not making fun or being disrespectful, but is it that difficult to understand?

No, it's not. That said, I noticed that our Twinfan is from Canada. That means he might be commenting from a more, uh, metric perspective. Perhaps this play is ruled differently in metric rules.

Could be. We haven't integrated to the metric system down south yet. Maybe soon though.

Very good previous discussion of this in these old threads:

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...-question.html

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...rops-ball.html

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...72-travel.html

Fixed it for you.

Good point, thanks.

Taken literally, this could lead to some interesting situations....A1 jumps, A1 fumbles the ball. A1 lands. This rule, taken alone, would mean that A1 traveled regardless of who subsequently touches the ball.

In fact, try this one....A1 jumps, B1 blocks A1's try before A1 released te ball the ball. A1 lands. This rule, taken alone, would mean that A1 traveled.

The point....this rule assumes it is not complicated by other actions such as a fumble, a blocked shot, or who knows what.

As has been said, a blocked shot or a fumble changes everything. A1 is now a player gaining control of a loose ball.

Imagine this one....

A1 having used their dribble establishes a pivot foot. A1 fumbles the ball. A1 takes 5 steps in order to get the ball. A1 again establishes a piviot foot in the new location. Has A1 violated at any point along the way? No. A1 can not travel while not holding the ball (player control).

I'm not understanding some of the thought proccess. He didn't just "jump" he started the habitual motion that preceeds a release of the ball trying to score a goal...that is totally different by rule than a jump. The only legal things he can do from there before he touches the ground is release the ball on a pass or try for a goal. I've played this game for a long time and coached for a long time...only officiated for a short time but it's always been a travell. And when studying the rule it shows travell. Not saying I'm right I just haven't seen anything rule quote wise that is changing my mind

Rule 4-21 = "A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a players grasp"

Therefore whether a jump or a shot how can it be a travel if the player lost player control?

Sadly, the thinking from all of your years of experience would give you the wrong ruling during an NCAA game.

So what does that tell you?

A.R. 82. After ending a dribble, A1 leaves the playing court to attempt a try for goal. While airborne, A1 fumbles the ball. A1 (a) recovers the fumble while airborne, or (b) recovers the fumble after returning to the floor. A1 dribbles the ball. The official calls a violation. Is the official correct? RULING: Yes. In (a) and (b) A1 is permitted to recover the ball but after recovering the ball, A1 started a second dribble. However, if a fumble is touched by another player and then recovered by A1, while airborne or after a return to the floor, A1 is allowed to start another dribble. If A1 had not previously dribbled the ball, and while airborne fumbled and recovered the ball (while airborne or after a return to the floor), he is permitted to start a dribble.

Like I said I'm not saying I'm right.
All my years of experience where at the high school level and not NCAA. I'm sure the rule may differ between the two.

You're hung up on the fact that it was a try; it doesn't matter. He could have jumped to pass, it's the same thing. You're not looking at the right rule; read the case play. By your logic, 4.44.3A would be a travel.

Nope.

The touch by the opponent has to cause a loss of control in order for A1 to dribble a second time, right?

Ok I will look into this deeper. Thanks all

Or be during the lost control; and it doesn't have to be an opponent.

This is the only written NFHS ruling that I've ever seen on this action.

2000-2001 BASKETBALL INTERPRETATIONS
SUPPLEMENT #1 (11/9/00)
SITUATION 1: A1 is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, A1 fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. A1 then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the bail must be released for a try or pass. (4—43-3a; 94)

Just saying...;)

Soooooooo?:confused:

If A1 is an airborne shooter, fumbles the ball, grabs it again in the air without it being touched by another player and then lands with the ball, using the same logic it's also traveling because the ball was never released on a pass or a try?

Just asking.....;)

He has another option
 

Why are you all assuming that he was jumping for a try or a pass? This could have been a jump stop. If you judge that he was passing or it was a try then I agree, travel. However, a player can leap off of one foot and land simultaneously on both feet and not be called for a travel. In this case I know of no rule or case book play that says a momentary loss of control constitutes a travel.

I don't have my books with me
 

Doesn't the case play have the ball fall to floor and then he is the first to touch it? Also, this is only if he jumps for a pass or an attempt. What if he is jumping off of one foot to begin a jump stop? He is not attempting a shot or a pass. The rule is clear that you can't lift your pivot foot and return it to the floor before releasing the ball on a pass or try, but the rule is also clear that you can jump off of one foot and land with both feet simultaneously and not be a travel.

If you've been assuming all along it's a jump stop, that's different. Based on the OP's assumption that if it wasn't a fumble, it was a travel, I'm not considering a jump stop on this play.

Fair enough
 

I have always envisioned this as a jump stop.

Because of this, for one thing.

The player stopped before he jumped.

If it's a jump stop, you're right. No travel regardless of the momentary release of the ball; which I've already stated.

Now that I'm actually reading the case play, I see that 4.44.3A isn't applicable at all. It involves a defender hitting the ball, so the "fumble" question isn't addressed in this case. As Nevada points out, the only relevant interp is from 2000-2001, but calling a travel because the player didn't release a pass or try is wrong-headed. By that logic, a player couldn't request a timeout. By that logic, a player couldn't even fumble it to a teammate without traveling.

I have raised this issue before, but I think it is worth highlighting, again. If the NFHS expects ALL officials to have knowledge of these interpretations, the NFHS MUST make ALL interpretations that are still in effect available to ALL officials -- not just those who regularly visit the officiating.com forum, the nfhs forum or other related forum.

The only reasonable way for this to occur is to put ALL of these interpretations in the Case Book. Even if ALL of those not already included would be added, it couldn't add more than 20 pages to the Case Book.

Once again, if the NFHS wants all brand new, second year, tenth year and thirtieth year officials to be enforcing these interps, it is incumbent upon the NFHS to deliver these rulings SOMEHOW. Even if the NFHS added a publication called Still Valid Past Interpretations, the information would be "reasonably" available for all officials. Otherwise, it is not reasonable to expect new officials (or even experienced ones who don't have access to these interps -- this one is TEN YEARS OLD...How many officials have been an official for less than 10 years???) to get this information AND enforce these interps in their games.

There, I feel better now...

Yep, and by the logic of that interp, this would be a travel regardless of who recovers the fumble. By that logic, it would be a travel if airborne A1's shot attempt was prevented from being released by B1's block. Or even 4.44.3A sit a.

In the "real world," calling this a travel will likely get an official in less trouble than calling it legal.

That doesn't make it right.

And, despite Nevada's 2001 Interp, I seem to recall a later interp (or rule, or fundamental, or ...) to the effect that "a player can always recover a fumble." (Maybe I'm just thinking of the NCAA AR.)

Bob,
This just serves to prove my point. Here we have THREE VERY EXPERIENCED and VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE officials who are struggling to nail this one with 100% certainty. I thought I remember the quote you mention about recovering a fumble as well, but I am not sure. If the NFHS would simply keep all interps that are still valid in a publication all NFHS officials receive, this situation would be easier to know what to call.

I agree with that.

There's also an issue when a case is dropped without comment. Is it still valid (and was dropped for "space") or is it no longer valid (dropped because a rules change or subsequent interp)?

That's funny because 2 seasons ago I had a play that I described in the forum in which in the last 5 seconds of a tie game (NFHS) A1 jumped to shoot a long 3-pointer, while he was in the air the ball flew out of his hands, he landed, and then caught ball. I called a travel, saying I based my call on essentially the logic above.

You (meaning Nevada Ref) said you would not have called it a travel because it was a fumble.

The NFHS Version Of War And Peace ???
 

I agree with both of you. I would be one of the first to purchase "Still Valid Past Interpretations" if such a publication existed.

Why is it that only Dr. Naismith, and Mark T. DeNucci, Sr., have access to the 1891-92 interpretations? It's not fair I tell you. It's blatant age discrimation. No doubt about it.

we are assuming it is for a shot because that is what the original post said. Also the book says that a shot starts by the habitual motion that preceeds a try for a goal....

the book does show a held ball if A1 was unable to release the ball due to B1 touching the ball while in the air

???? And??