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Mark Padgett Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:31pm
Free throw positioning question
 
Can anyone tell me where in the NF rulebook or casebook does it specifically state that players along the FT lane cannot have their arms extended into the space next to them? I'm not talking about linking arms or contact, just having the arms in front of the other player. Thanks.

Adam Mon Nov 22, 2010 01:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post 702509)
Can anyone tell me where in the NF rulebook or casebook does it specifically state that players along the FT lane cannot have their arms extended into the space next to them? I'm not talking about linking arms or contact, just having the arms in front of the other player. Thanks.
Nope; because it's not the rule.

AHSAA_Ref Mon Nov 22, 2010 01:05pm
I want to say it does, but I do not have a reference. We are told it is a lane violation.

BktBallRef Mon Nov 22, 2010 01:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHSAA_Ref (Post 702524)
I want to say it does, but I do not have a reference. We are told it is a lane violation.
It is not a lane violation, as it's not illegal.

It's illegal to break the FT lane plane with your foot or leave your space by placing it in the opponent's space. Nothing illegal about extending your arm into either area.

mbyron Mon Nov 22, 2010 01:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHSAA_Ref (Post 702524)
I want to say it does, but I do not have a reference. We are told it is a lane violation.
You are told incorrectly. Not a violation.

Casebook:

9.1 COMMENT: While Rule 8-1 clearly states which marked lane spaces must
be occupied and by whom, a team forfeits its right to any space not occupied
before the free throw starts (when the ball is placed at the disposal of the free
thrower). Once a free throw starts, no player occupying a marked lane space may
enter or leave such space or break with either foot the vertical plane of any lane
or lane-space boundary until the ball touches the ring or backboard or until the
free throw ends. Players who do not occupy a marked lane space may not have
either foot break the vertical plane of the free-throw-line extended and the vertical
plane of the three-point line until the ball touches the ring, or the backboard,
or the free throw ends. No player may enter or leave a marked lane space after
the ball is placed at the disposal of the free thrower until the restrictions have
ended as outlined.

BktBallRef Mon Nov 22, 2010 01:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 702528)
You are told incorrectly. Not a violation.

Casebook:

9.1 COMMENT: While Rule 8-1 clearly states which marked lane spaces must
be occupied and by whom, a team forfeits its right to any space not occupied
before the free throw starts (when the ball is placed at the disposal of the free
thrower). Once a free throw starts, no player occupying a marked lane space may
enter or leave such space or break with either foot the vertical plane of any lane
or lane-space boundary until the ball touches the ring or backboard or until the
free throw ends. Players who do not occupy a marked lane space may not have
either foot break the vertical plane of the free-throw-line extended and the vertical
plane of the three-point line until the ball touches the ring, or the backboard,
or the free throw ends. No player may enter or leave a marked lane space after
the ball is placed at the disposal of the free thrower until the restrictions have
ended as outlined.
Or what I said in plain English. :)

mbyron Mon Nov 22, 2010 01:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 702530)
Or what I said in plain English. :)
Sure, but he said he didn't have a reference. Now he does. ;)

smginnis Mon Nov 22, 2010 01:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 702528)
You are told incorrectly. Not a violation.

Casebook:

9.1 COMMENT: While Rule 8-1 clearly states which marked lane spaces must
be occupied and by whom, a team forfeits its right to any space not occupied
before the free throw starts (when the ball is placed at the disposal of the free
thrower). Once a free throw starts, no player occupying a marked lane space may
enter or leave such space or break with either foot the vertical plane of any lane
or lane-space boundary until the ball touches the ring or backboard or until the
free throw ends. Players who do not occupy a marked lane space may not have
either foot break the vertical plane of the free-throw-line extended and the vertical
plane of the three-point line until the ball touches the ring, or the backboard,
or the free throw ends. No player may enter or leave a marked lane space after
the ball is placed at the disposal of the free thrower until the restrictions have
ended as outlined.
If "the space" is defined by the area within the marked lane space and the vertical planes created by the marked lane spaces, I'll make an argument that a player is leaving "the space" and "entering" a new space by moving parts of their body (i.e. torso, butt, arms, hands) outside of their marked space and into the space next to theirs.

I may be wrong, but I hate the idea of allowing kids to stick their arms across another lined up player. Patty cake and fouls soon follow.

mbyron Mon Nov 22, 2010 01:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by smginnis (Post 702544)
If "the space" is defined by the area within the marked lane space and the vertical planes created by the marked lane spaces, I'll make an argument that a player is leaving "the space" and "entering" a new space by moving parts of their body (i.e. torso, butt, arms, hands) outside of their marked space and into the space next to theirs.

I may be wrong, but I hate the idea of allowing kids to stick their arms across another lined up player. Patty cake and fouls soon follow.
Your interp is not supported by rule or common sense. Do you leave your car by sticking your arm out the window? ;)

If they commit a foul as a result of having their hands on each other, then call the foul. But don't make up violations because you don't like the existing rules.

Adam Mon Nov 22, 2010 01:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by smginnis (Post 702544)
If "the space" is defined by the area within the marked lane space and the vertical planes created by the marked lane spaces, I'll make an argument that a player is leaving "the space" and "entering" a new space by moving parts of their body (i.e. torso, butt, arms, hands) outside of their marked space and into the space next to theirs.

I may be wrong, but I hate the idea of allowing kids to stick their arms across another lined up player. Patty cake and fouls soon follow.
The rule very clearly states that breaking the plane with your foot is a violation. If they wanted it called like you do, they would simply state that breaking the plane is a violation.

Patty cake is easily stopped before fouls most of the time. If nothing else, and they both start engaging; call a double foul and play on. They'll get the message.

AHSAA_Ref Mon Nov 22, 2010 01:49pm
My guess is I'll bring this up in the meeting and be yelled at. (Funny thing, when I get yelled at..I'm usually right!)

AHSAA_Ref Mon Nov 22, 2010 01:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 702551)
The rule very clearly states that breaking the plane with your foot is a violation. If they wanted it called like you do, they would simply state that breaking the plane is a violation.

Patty cake is easily stopped before fouls most of the time. If nothing else, and they both start engaging; call a double foul and play on. They'll get the message.
Actually the word "or" makes that much LESS clear.

mbyron Mon Nov 22, 2010 01:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHSAA_Ref (Post 702553)
Actually the word "or" makes that much LESS clear.
I don't think it's unclear. You leave a space by entering another space, which you can't do by waving your hands. That's one way to violate.

OR, you can violate without leaving if you move your feet through the boundary of the space.

What's unclear?

26 Year Gap Mon Nov 22, 2010 01:57pm
"Knock off the sword fights." You know what they are when you see them. But if there is no contact*, there is no violation. [This is more of a preventative measure when both players--usually girls--think their opponent is the six-fingered man]. There is a reason 'foot' or 'feet' is described in the rule.

*Not that there is a violation in this instance. Just preventative officiating. I still haven't figured out why players think they can jump higher with their arms outstretched.

AHSAA_Ref Mon Nov 22, 2010 02:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 702557)
I don't think it's unclear. You leave a space by entering another space, which you can't do by waving your hands. That's one way to violate.

OR, you can violate without leaving if you move your feet through the boundary of the space.

What's unclear?
What is the need for BOTH then? I mean, if the ONLY way to leave the space is to put your foot in it, why the need for this, "Once a free throw starts, no player occupying a marked lane space may
enter or leave such space or break with either foot the vertical plane of any lane
or lane-space boundary until the ball touches the ring or backboard or until the
free throw ends.

AHSAA_Ref Mon Nov 22, 2010 02:04pm
Is it saying, you can't put your foot down OR take your foot and have it dangling in the air in another plane?

Cause THAT makes sense.

justacoach Mon Nov 22, 2010 02:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHSAA_Ref (Post 702562)
What is the need for BOTH then? I mean, if the ONLY way to leave the space is to put your foot in it, why the need for this, "Once a free throw starts, no player occupying a marked lane space may
enter or leave such space or break with either foot the vertical plane of any lane
or lane-space boundary until the ball touches the ring or backboard or until the
free throw ends.
Consider that you can leave a marked lane space by extending one's foot past the rear or front plane just as well as a side plane. Fed defines 'marked lane space' as 3' deep, beginning at outer edge of 3 sec lane. Recent change dictates that one foot must remain in close proximity to nearer lane line, IIRC.
CAVEAT: Although I post with the voice of authority, I could be entirely wrong as I am a former coach!!

Adam Mon Nov 22, 2010 02:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHSAA_Ref (Post 702563)
Is it saying, you can't put your foot down OR take your foot and have it dangling in the air in another plane?

Cause THAT makes sense.
Yes, and in the last couple of years they added the part about putting any part of your body on the floor outside the lane space; making it even more clear that those other body parts do not create a violation merely by breaking the plane.

ref3808 Mon Nov 22, 2010 05:04pm
8-4-G (p51 2010-11 NFHS Book)
 
It reads ... "Not more than one player may occupy any part of a marked lane space".

OK, I know it might be thin ... but it should be part of the discussion.

Adam Mon Nov 22, 2010 05:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ref3808 (Post 702624)
It reads ... "Not more than one player may occupy any part of a marked lane space".

OK, I know it might be thin ... but it should be part of the discussion.
Obviously meant to prevent teammats from doubling up in a lane space; can't read too much into that.

ref3808 Mon Nov 22, 2010 05:11pm
Case Book 9.1.3
 
Indicates that extending the arms over the area between the lane spaces is legal if there is no contact. Of course it says nothing about extending into another contestant's lane space.

Adam Mon Nov 22, 2010 05:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ref3808 (Post 702626)
Indicates that extending the arms over the area between the lane spaces is legal if there is no contact. Of course it says nothing about extending into another contestant's lane space.
There's what, three inches between lane spaces?

26 Year Gap Mon Nov 22, 2010 05:32pm
I'll take space number 2.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ref3808 (Post 702626)
Indicates that extending the arms over the area between the lane spaces is legal if there is no contact. Of course it says nothing about extending into another contestant's lane space.

http://hollywoodjunket.com/blog/wp-c...MakeADeal2.jpg

mbyron Mon Nov 22, 2010 05:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap (Post 702628)
Reminds me of the Monty Hall Problem.

Monty Hall problem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Try it yourself:
Monty Hall Simulation

rsl Mon Nov 22, 2010 05:44pm
9-1-3d clearly defines what it means to enter or leave:

No player shall enter a marked lane space or leave a marked lane space by contacting the court outside the 36-inch by 36-inch space.

This clearly does not prohibit reaching unless you touch the floor

26 Year Gap Mon Nov 22, 2010 06:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 702631)
Reminds me of the Monty Hall Problem.

Monty Hall problem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Try it yourself:
Monty Hall Simulation
But, if the contestants switch lane spaces, there is a good probability that they will commit a violation as the space assignments are not random.

BillyMac Mon Nov 22, 2010 08:27pm
That's What It's All About ...
 
I'm confused. Are we playing patty cake, or our we doing the hokey pokey?

ref3808 Mon Nov 22, 2010 08:33pm
I believe some may quibble with my use of the word contestant
 
contestant
Noun
1con·tes·tant (k n-t s t nt, k n t s t nt) n. 1. One taking part in a contest; a competitor 2 a person who dissents from some established policy [syn: dissenter, dissident, protester, objector]

Admitedly, it does lead one to think of game shows.

26 Year Gap Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ref3808 (Post 702652)
contestant
Noun
1con·tes·tant (k n-t s t nt, k n t s t nt) n. 1. One taking part in a contest; a competitor 2 a person who dissents from some established policy [syn: dissenter, dissident, protester, objector]

Admittedly, it does lead one to think of game shows.
Considering the rule book, case book, etc refer to players as, well, players, it is not surprising to think of other competitions. Like spelling bees.;)

Back In The Saddle Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 702627)
There's what, three inches between lane spaces?
two, actually ;)


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