Inadvertent Kick on Throw In
 

NCAA rules:
A1 handed ball for throw in, bounces ball to set up a play. Ball inadvertently goes off his foot and into the court in play.
Would this be:
A) Violation for failure to throw ball directly into court
B) Treated as a fumble and returned to A1 for another throwin
C) Legal

As long as it goes off his foot and next hits inbounds, it's nothing.

I suspect this is the ruling that you are most likely to see applied to the situation which you pose:

Throw-in
A.R. 178. A1, on a throw-in from a designated spot, fumbles. A1 leaves
the designated spot to retrieve the fumble. Is this a violation?
RULING: No. Since there was a fumble, the official shall blow his/
her whistle, which causes the ball to become dead, and then shall readminister
the throw-in.
(Rule 4-31.1 and 7-6.5)

Imo I think you have to judge whether it was a throw-in pass or a fumble. Both the NFHS and NCAA use similar language for a legal throw-in. They both say that the thrower has to release the ball on a pass directly into the court. If you judged that the thrower intended to kick the ball into the court, I'd agree it was nothing. If you instead judged that the the thrower inadvertantly kicked the ball, I'd go with Nevada's ruling.

But that's just me.

Now I'm just axin', but wouldn't this qualify as a kicked ball? 9-4?

In the specific play you ask (the ball never touches the floor OOB), then the play is legal (at least so far). It's the same as if the ball is "fumbled" and lands inbounds -- that's the throw-in and play on and a vioaltion if A1 is the first to touch the ball.

Nope, you consider it the same as the thrower dribbling the ball OOB. Would you call an illegal second dribble on a thrower if they dribbled the ball, caught it and dribbled it again? :eek:

Case book play 9.2.2SitD

Apples and stereos.

Of course I wouldn't call an illegal dribble. Fundamental #5, dribbling or traveling rules do not apply during a throw-in, jump ball, or free throw.

It says nothing of kicked ball rules, and your post mentioned the player intentionally kicking the ball in as his throw-in pass.

I agree with Snaqwells, if what Jurassic said is what he meant. ;)

Still trying to redeem myself after that serious brain fart yesterday.

Throw-in violations are listed under 9-2. See kicking the ball by the thrower in there anywhere?

It's a matter of intent imo, and that's why I made that statement. Did the thrower intend to throw-in the ball via kicking it to a team mate in-bounds? if so, I don't think that's a violation under either NFHS or NCAA rules.

Or was the kick inadvertant, and this should be treated as a fumble as in case book play 9.2.1SitB(a) where the ball is fumbled forward?

WHAT??? Intentionally kicking the ball is NOT a violation???

Is the thrower-in a player? Yes. Did that player intentionally kick the ball? Yes. That's a violation. Not a throw-in violation under 9-2, perhaps; but definitely a kicking violation under 9-4.

What's your opinion of case book play of 9.2.2SitB(a) then where we're directed to re-set if the ball is fumbled forward? It doesn't say how much forward or how far forward or whether the ball went forwards in-bounds or not, just that we should re-set. Would you treat an inadvertently kicked ball differently? I wouldn't. And if you would, I'd appreciate a cite.

NFHS rules. Not sure if it's definitively covered under NCAA rules.

If dribbling and traveling rules don't apply OOB, what makes you think that deliberately kicking the ball should? Especially when none of those violations are listed as throw-in violations under 9-2? Would you call a thrower for fisting the ball to a teammate in-bounds too?

The only reason the dribbling and traveling rules don't apply is that there's a NOTE that specifically tells us they don't apply. Have you found such a note that refers to kicking violations?

I personally would only call it if the throw-in was closely contested and there was a possibility that the fist might connect with an opponent. But I believe that by rule, it would be a violation.

Yep. I'd also call him for swinging his elbows if he did so.
And you're going to allow him to punt it down the court?

It seems we have what's called an impasse.

Next question, is the rule fundamental #5 the only place that tells us traveling and dribbling rules don't apply to the thrower on a throwin? Or is it written within the rules somewhere?

This sounds to me like a question of player/team control.

There must be control in order for a travel or illegal dribble violation to occur. Must there also be control for a kick violation?

While there certainly must be control for those two, that's not the answer for a couple of reasons.

First of all, in NCAA there is control during a throw in.
Second, there's control during a free throw.
Third, the rule doesn't tie this to control anywhere.

Correct, if they wanted the thrower to be able to kick the ball then #5 would have included that kicking rule does not apply to the thrower on a throwin.

Me think JR is just stirring a conversation, a good thing.

Have you found anything under 9.2 that refers to kicking or fisting the ball as being a violation by the thrower? How do I know what the full intent of the Rules Committee was when it came to exceptions to the throw-in rules? Maybe they just didn't have room ...or reason...to list them all.

2) And that leads me to an additional point. Afaik both kicking and fisting the ball were implemented mainly as safety rules(with kicking also giving a defender an advantage not meant by specific rule). They were put in the book to stop an act that could possibly endanger another player. Well, on a throw-in by rule the opponents have to be in-bounds....not OOB. As do the thrower's team mates on a spot throw-in. Team mates can be OOB on an unrestricted end-line throw-in but is there any reason to kick the ball to a team mate standing right next to you? And if the team mate is at the other end of the end line, where's the chance of injury. The safety factor is just not a factor when it comes to the thrower imo.

No.

How bout a shank?

Disagree with the safety factor on the kick; as well as the advantage. It's not soccer. A contested throwin would have the defender in danger if the thrower was allowed to punt the ball. Also, the ability to punt the ball would be a distinct advantage for a tired player or a player with a weaker throwing arm. Bring in your soccer star and have him punt the throwin down court.

If B1 was contesting the throwin and A1 decided to start swinging his elbows to back him off; would you call it? What if A2 started doing it, during the throwin, to clear space for him to receive a pass.

Finally, why is it a violation for B1 to kick the ball "during" the throwin if it's not a violation for A1 to do it?

Nope, JR is wondering whether what we're arguing is definitively covered by rule. I'm not sure it is. I'm equally unsure as to whether I'm on the right side of the argument either ..also because I'm unsure if it's definitively covered. :)

6-1. (I thought this was a NOTE, but it's just in the body of the article.)

1) Um, I wouldn't allow B1 to get OOB while contesting the throw-in. We got rules to cover that situation. And all the thrower has to do is take a step back if a defender crowds the line legally.

2) It's a violation for any player in-bounds to kick a throw-in, isn't it? But I can't see any rule either way anywhere saying the thrower OOB has similar restrictions.

It's covered by rule. I'm sure of it. I've already given the citation. Here it is again:

It does not specify an inbounds player, and it does not except a thrower-in. This covers the play definitively.

Good question. What if the player was a Sikh carrying a kirpan? What would you do?

Me? I just became the U. :D

That's not a kick, fellas.

There's no such thing as an inadvertent kick. Kicking is an intentional act.

Just re-read my previous rebuttals, please. Saves me a lot of time.

We disagree.

Yup, I think that you should treat that one the same as a fumble as per case play 9.2.1SitB(a). We're arguing the alternative. Deliberate kick by the thrower.

Now were are off topic for sure.

Religious medals are legal if taped and covered by the uniform. Right? What's the difference?

Heeheeheehee......:D

1. Sure, that's all he has to do; but you and I both know they don't always take the easiest route. The question is, is it a violation?

2) The exception in 6-1 (thanks scrappy) doesn't specify that the thrower is the only one exempt. It says "during these situations."

The question is, do other violations apply during a throwin?

It's sounds like a job for the good ol' 2-3 fallback.

I'm with scrappy, there's no need for 2-3 here; it's covered by the rules. In the absence of a rule telling me kicked-ball rules don't apply to the thrower on a throwin, it's a violation.

The rule doesn't say the thrower is exempt from all violations not noted in 9-2, it states two specific violations that don't apply "during throwins."

JR's making the same argument some of us made a few years ago with regard to the backcourt violation exceptions; before the NFHS shot us down by telling us that the exceptions noted were all inclusive.

Is that the right cite? I can't seem to find it in my 2010-2011 case book.

There is 9.2.1B (a), but here, it's not a fumble, it's a muff. And, that's completely different.

9.2.1B (b) is a fumble -- and a violation, but not really relevant to the play.

A fumble is accidental, and it makes sense to reset, per the rule.

A kick is an intentional act, and is a violation when the ball is live. I'm with Scrapper here.

Why would the rules permit a player to kick the ball during a THROW-in? :rolleyes:

Amazin' ...