SIU Time Out
 

Intersting play at the end of the SIU/Northeastern game.
With about 3 seconds left to SIU players come up with a rebound. The L official blows his whistle and signals TO SIU. One problem, SIU does not have a TO. Video shows no SIU player making a TO signal. The officials huddle and tell the SIU coach that they heard "someone" from SIU call TO. Technical on SIU, N'eastern hits one.
Thoughts?

My thought: seems to me if I'm going to issue a technical foul, it would benefit me to be able to identify the person who requested the TO. But for the record, the hand signal is not required for this.

Just finished watching that. Interesting situation. Looking at the replay, the official grants a timeout request, then points to the player who apparently requested it.

There looked to be no visual request for a timeout. The official told the table that "He heard someone from SIU yell timeout"

The announcers thought it might have been #2 for SIU, who was standing next to the official who eventually granted the TO. He started to make a visual request, but I thought that came after the official had granted the TO.

Something about the officials' explanation doesn't sit well with me.

My thought as well. The official not being able to identify the player who requested it punches some holes in his story.

Agreed. But it would have been nice to see a player making a "T" sign for the viewers at home!

My thoughts, in order they occur:

* Ouch!
* At least they owned up to it
* In a time critical situation you want to be very, very aware of any time out request
* That "hyper awareness" can sometimes get you into trouble
* I have stopped play for a phantom time out request at the end of a one point game once (see Ouch! comment above)
* Might we be better off by delaying just slightly to ensure there is actually a request, then putting time back on the clock? It seems in this case we have an relatively good remedy (good remedy = easily sellable and high likelihood of the remedy being accepted without incident) for a delay in granting a time out, but no good remedy for a whistle for a phantom request.

Not really holes, it just makes it harder to sell later when the proverbial fan gets dirty. I still have a hard time identifying players who request TO, since they do it so rarely I don't get much practice.

During SIU last timeout we got together as a crew and let each other know that SIU had no more timeouts...why with :03 left would we acknowledge a timeout from SIU unless it is totally visual (because you know it will result in a technical foul!)?

Maybe because it's the rule, and if the player requests it, you grant it; regardless of whether it's visual.

I'm not doubting that he heard the word "timeout" come from someone, somewhere. Could have been the crowd behind him. Maybe it was a savvy opponent who knew that SIU had no timeouts left?

From the way I've read your post in this thread, the official pointed directly at the player when he granted it. Forgetting the number and face later, even seconds later, is not uncommon. But I'll bet he doesn't forget again.

Possibly. I'll also contend that the players mouth could be moving, but he didn't actually say "timeout".

I'd be interested to hear what SIU's coach had to say about the explanation he got. I'm sure a reporter put the bait out there, it's just a matter of whether or not Lowery bit.

Until evidence shows otherwise, I'll choose to believe the explanation that is more charitable to the officials involved (both their competence and their integrity). You seem willing to question one or both; based on what?

Watch the reply over.
When the official goes to point to SIU bench, look at #2 hands to the side behind the official.

Looks like to me that #2 is making a T with his hands!

What you all think.
Seen this reply in the highlights when they are explaining it.

Watch the reply over.
When the official goes to point to SIU bench, look at #2 hands to the side behind the official.

Looks like to me that #2 is making a T with his hands!

What you all think.
Seen this reply in the highlights when they are explaining it.

Youngref, you are correct. However, in the video, the official is already granting timeout, then points at a player other than #2.

I'm questioning nobody's integrity. I'm questioning the play. I think it's certainly possible that the official realized he messed up after the fact, then tried to cover his behind with a weak story.

I'm all for giving fellow officials the benefit of the doubt, but there's something that just doesn't sit right with me on this one. I'm not saying that his integrity was compromised in any way. It's quite possible that he made a mistake (Oh my, officials make mistakes??!!??), and did a poor job afterwards.

It's easy for me to play armchair quarterback here, I'm just giving my opinion. If you want to discredit that because I'm willing to question what happened, so be it. Everyone on this board (including myself), has been critical of another official on this board, sometimes in a condescending way. If we can be critical on each other while interpreting a rule, why can't we be critical of a real situation that ended up being instrumental in deciding the outcome of a game?

Really? You don't see the part in red as an issue of integrity?

There are really only three options here:
1. It happened as the official stated it did.
2. He's convinced a player made a verbal request, but the player didn't make the request.
3. He realized he goofed, but stuck to his guns and issued the T anyway.

#2 is an issue of competence.
#3 is competence and integrity.

From your own comments, the video does not show the ref was in error. So you're basing your opinion on the official's competence on what, your gut?

And you think that the official is a liar? What basis do you have for that conclusion except your very own take on the play, a take that is not supported by a shred of evidence to back it up btw.

Maybe it's just me, but I always like to go along with an official unless there's evidence that he actually did screw up. And I haven't read anything factual so far in this thread proving that he did so, just conjecture. Y'all go ahead and dump on the guy though. Personally I'll wait until I find out if there really is a reason to dump on him though.

Gee, you think like an official, not a fanboy.

Why aren't I surprised? :D

I'm not accusing the official of lying.

I'm just stating what I think could have happened. Never once did I say this is what happened. I've been trying to think about all the possible situations and explanations.

I've been in loud arenas before, and I can only imagine what the noise is like down on the floor at the end of a close game. I never accused the official of anything, because you're right. I have no hard evidence. Neither do you. I'm just hashing out the possibilities.

You're saying he might have lied, then, based on nothing but conjecture.

Allow me to summarize your statements. Don't worry, I'll try to be charitable.

"It just seems fishy. Maybe the official lied. Maybe he's just wrong."

Has the coach or player even denied making the verbal request?

If the evidence shows the official lied, I'll dump on him.

Snaq you're exactly right. Where's the crime in this? Why are you getting on me for throwing possibilities out there? That's all I'm doing.

No crime, fanboy. Officials expect that treatment. It comes with the territory.

And we officials are territorial. :)

Damn right we are. I just don't get why nobody else can acknowledge the fact that there are other possibilities. We don't get everything right all the time.

Honestly, because you're dumping on an official without evidence. You have the "right" to do it, and I have the "right" to call you out for it. There's nothing that suggests the officials' story is anything less than truthful, so why offer conjecture that casts them as dishonest and incompetent? I just don't understand that desire.

If we know that an official screwed up, we do discuss it, see if we can learn from it and maybe even dump a l'il on the poor goober that screwed up. We all screw up at some time; that's a given.

What most of usually don't do is crap on any official without hearing their side of the story or having some kinda actual proof that they really did screw up.

Try putting yourself in that official's position. You may have made the absolutely correct call in your mind and know for a fact that a TO was requested by the team that didn't have one left, but people are crapping on you without asking you for the details. Or, if you do give someone the details, they just simply say "I don't believe that", just like you're doing now.

That's where we're coming from.

I'm right with you guys. No doubt about it.

All I'm doing is throwing out possible explanations for what happened...nothing more. I'm done arguing about this because I've said all I can say.

I can ask one of the officials directly if you like. I did not see the game and there is no guarantee that person will tell me what happened as they are not obligated. But I sure can ask. ;)

Peace

You forgot "He might have had money on the game. He might have graduated from the other school. He might have had a grudge against the coach. He might have been trying to make a "make-up" call."

No, stiffler didn't say any of those. But they're all in the same vein.

To be fair, it's possible he was thinking those things. There's no proof he wasn't.

Let me defend myself. I know better than to think an official has money on a certain game, or doesn't like a certain coach. I have no ties to either school...I was simply happy to be watching basketball in the morning.

The difference is you're here to defend yourself from my wild and unfounded accusations.

FWIW, I was on SIU's message board today and one of their fans said that he heard one of their guys call the timeout. You can also see Fay from SIU (tall white guy) put his hands on his face and shake his head as soon as the timeout is granted because he knew they had screwed the pooch.

Amazing. Maybe, just maybe, it wasn't the official's fault.

Stiffler, how many posts do you think you would you have made in this thread if you had information like that beforehand?

Do you have a video link?

There is a lot of wisdom in this statement. I think it may have gotten lost in all of the other back and forth.
Had a TO request tonite during a quasi fast break. Coach asked me who called it and was able to give her the number. Saved a lot of grief. Aren't we supposed to give the number of the player calling the TO? i.e. "White 23 Time Out. Full"?

If we are going to bust someones chops about assuming, then we need to be conssitent. The expression by the SIU player in no way proves anything one way or another.
He could have made the expression b/c HE was the one who called for the TO. He could have made that expression b/c he knew SOMEONE on his team called a TO. that he knew they didn't have
He could have made that expression b/c he thought it was a bad call.
We just don't know and can't just jump to conclusions. Not defending one position or another, just trying to apply the same standards to each side.

Yes, we are supposed to. Last year, the two times I had players request TOs, I instinctively reported them to the table as "C".

That's b/c in the pregame write up the coach called that player their "Coach on the Floor". So you were really correct!:D

I'll take that as a rhetorical question.

I still don't get why you all think I'm attacking the official. All I did was throw possibilities out there. I didn't have any information, neither did anyone else until that bit of information came out...

Right, and without information, raising the possibility of officials' misconduct is irresponsible fanboy behavior.

You still don't get it. Hopefully, one day you will. Or not.

We take enough shots at our integrity from the outside; so why do it to each other without information that points in that direction?

Well that is a very dangerous position to take. There will be a time when you will be doing your job and some reporter will claim you had some motive to make a call that you clearly did not. If the national media is not making that claim, not sure we should either. And the visiting team benefited from this which makes this even more "above board" as we all know that the home team benefits from any close call. ;)

Peace

Heck, one of those officials used to post here for a while. Maybe he'll come back just to discuss the play!! :D

That was the official I was referring to. Heeeheee!!!

Peace

I met him briefly at camp one summer. Seemed like a great guy.

I think...no, I know...that the recap and the boxscore both show that Mamadou Seck of SIU got charged with the "T".

Whereinthehell is the problem? :confused: Very obviously the official knew which player to charge with the "T".

Allen free throw gives Northeastern 63-62 OT win - College Basketball - Rivals.com

Perhaps I missed something in reading posts - but while some might think the official lied :confused: could it not be true that a player did request a TO - then realize they didn't have any left and then say they never requested a TO?

Nah, that would never happen either!

I was going with the quote from the officials at the time of the play.

Based on the Northeastern-SIU game, a Sporting News writer thinks the NCAA should use the FIBA rule for calling timeouts. Here's part of the column, followed by the link.


"What occurred in Carbondale appeared to be a lousy application of an abominable rule.

This result ought to push the NCAA rules committee toward adopting FIBA rules on timeouts, which are much more reasonable, lead to a more attractive game and also avoid making scapegoats out of players like Webber and whomever allegedly was at fault for SIU."



NCAA should change its timeout rule - NCAA Basketball - Sporting News

What explanation? Was there a press release verifying official told the table this?

The announcers got that from the scorer's table.

An excessive timeout technical is an administrative technical foul, charged to the team. Why did they put the player in the box score as having been charged a technical?

And I know you voted this year :)

If the timeout wasn't granted, looked like a travel to me.

interested point about changing the timeout rule to the FIBA rule. Would certainly make officials life easier.

YouTube - NU vs SIU - Nov 16th, 2010

If someone already posted this video I didn't see it.

#2 signaled T.O. It's clear as day. My bet is he said it, too.

Two players called for a timeout.

Peace

I'll lay my wager (ahem) on #0. Think about it. If you've ever been in a similar end-of-game situation, you should be focused on the ball, as the lead was here. He's looking straight at #0 (and his teammate) and does not hesitate one iota. If #2 calls timeout, i would expect the lead to at least look in his direction.

Perhaps they both called it. But #2 signaled with his hands. No doubt.

Maybe the person at the scorer's table that screwed up so badly when he told the announcers that they weren't sure which player called the TO also screwed up again by entering the "T" in the book wrong. After viewing the video, I'd say that's a helluva lot more likely than the official screwing it up. Don't let that stop you though. Carry on crapping on the officials withoud a shred of proof that they screwed up in any way.

I'm with the old guy on this one; a table screw up on how to apply the T is far more likely. Even if they screwed the admin part up, no big deal except to the assigners and evaluators in this case.

Keep thinking what you want man, I'm not crapping on anyone.