Substitution Question
 

Team A request/granted a 60 second timeout. After approx. 1 minute, all 10 players from both teams come out of their respective huddles and get into postition on the court. My partner is moments away from putting the ball into play when coach of team B sends a player B6 to the scorers table. I tell B6 that she will have to wait until the next opportunity to sub. Coach says that the first horn had never sounded and we should not deny her entry. I am certain that about a minute had expired, the timer just neglected to sound the horn. Should the substitution been allowed?

The sub reported to the bench before the warning signal sounded. You have no rules justification to deny entry to that sub. See NFHS rule 3-3-1(a).

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Yep, and talk to the timer. They should have (of) sounded the horn at 45 seconds, and again at a minute.

Preventative officiating: when the horn sounds (or should sound) I inform the teams that the horn has sounded. This should take care of the problem.

Yep, and in middle school, AAU, YMCA, or similar games it's not uncommon to need to remind the table to hit the warning horn.

Second preventative officiating: When both teams come out, have the timer sound the first horn and then (after a short delay -- up to 15 seconds) the second horn.

You need a hornier timer. ;)

So what if at 30 seconds into a full time out both teams are ready, but before the ball is put in play a sub comes to the table (assume before the 15 second horn would have normally sounded)? Do we allow that sub?

In NCAA, the calling team may end a TO early by notifying the official. The official then has the timer sound the warning horn immediately and the other team then has 15 seconds to be ready to play (5-14d). NFHS has no such provision.

Bob, would you routinely have the timer sound the warning horn immediately if both teams are breaking the huddle before the warning horn?

The administering official on the throw-in is supposed to blow their whistle on a throw-in after a TO or unusual delay. Use the whistle in lieu of the horn.

So we'll allow the sub up until the whistle? That makes sense to me.

Yes I would. In NFHS, the TO can be shortened if both teams agree (or whatever teh specific wording is). If they both come out of the huddle, I'm considering that "agreeing" (or as having notified the officials, or ...)

Not definitively covered afaik, but it also makes sense to me to do that.

2-3!

Perhaps not entirely 2-3...If both teams are back on the court and the administering official is about to put the ball in play, then this would seem to come into play: "The substitute shall remain outside the boundary until an official beckons, whereupon he/she shall enter immediately. If the ball is about to become live, the beckoning signal should be withheld."

Page 81 of the rules book in the 2010-2011 Major Rules Differences (NFHS vs. NCAA) states under time out(s) reduction for NFHS:

"Reduced if both teams are ready"

I've gotten in the habit of sounding the horn if one team is ready while the other is still in the huddle.

Concerning the timer not sounding the horn when they should, they are pre-occupied with something else, not properly trained, or not watching the stopwatch/time out timer.

Get out of that habit, or stop complaining about other scorers/timers who aren't doing their jobs properly.

Agreed, but in a situation where both teams came out at 40 seconds, the timer decided to skip the horn, and just before you're ready to hand the ball the thrower a sub shows up at the table?

Rule 3-1a says:

"A substitute who desires to enter shall report to the scorer, giving
his/her number.
a. Between quarters, at halftime and during a time-out, the substitute must report or be in position to report to the scorer, prior to the warning signal which is sounded 15 seconds before the end of the intermission or the
time-out."

However in your case, no warning horn, it sounds as if Rule 2-3 shall be applied:

"The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules."

I am not seeing anything in the rules covering what should be done if no warning horn/signal is sounded.

Snaq, it also depends on how close to the warning horn the one team is still huddling as to if I sound the horn.

Majority of the time, it's so close to the warning horn (within 5 secs.) that I just sound the warning horn.

It's in rule 11 and involves a tazer and/or pepper spray.

Why? You've cut off 5 seconds of their allowed time to submit a sub.

There is not a Rule 11 as the last rule listed is 10-6-11.

Example: 60 sec. TO by team A, Team A is ready to play at 40 secs. while Team B is still in huddle (warning horn sounds at 45 secs.)

The opportunity to bring in a sub is still there.

When I do sound the warning horn earlier than normal, due to one team being ready to play, the time remaining is normally 10 or more secs. until the warning horn (although I said in earlier post & example within 5 secs.), there is still time being allowed for subs.

I only do this during the 60 sec. TOs & it rarely happens (once or twice a season).

Here's the problem; by sounding the warning horn early, you're telling the officials that 45 seconds have elapsed and they are not going to allow a sub if they're following procedure. They have no way of knowing you're 10 seconds ahead of pace.

There is no reason to sound the horn just because one team has come out of the huddle.

DON'T SOUND THE HORN UNTIL IT'S THE PROPER TIME.

Oh, that's right, you got the timer/scorer's abridged version.

1) Whyinthehell would you ever do anything like that when you KNOW both teams aren't ready? Rule 2-12-4 tells you exactly when to blow your horn on timeouts. Just follow the rules, mind your own business and keep your nose out of things in the game that are absolutely no concern at all of yours. And furthermore....lah me.

2) If timers aren't properly trained they should be directed...nay, ordered.... it should be made mandatory....mandatory, I tell ya....to enrol in Chseagle's Four-Star Summer Timing Camp For Wayward Timers. Motto- "Watch a legend in action!"

Snaq,

You forget that majority of the games I do as timer are at the JV/C level so both the coaches & officials are wanting to keep the game moving in order to be available for Varsity or wanting to watch Varsity.

As I stated it rarely happens. Those times it does happen I hear no complants from the coaches or floor officials.

I follow the timing regulations fully, the sounding of the horn early is a 1:200 to 1:300 happening & at the request of the floor officials & coaches by mutual consent.

No, there is NOT time being allowed for subs. If you allow a sub after the horn, you're going directly against the rules. The sub has to be there BEFORE you sound the warning signal. Says so right in rule 3-3-1(a). Also see case book play 3.3.1Sit A that says any and all substititions MUST be made before the warning signal is given. Case book plays 3.3.1SitB&C tell you the exact same thing.

You're making up your own rules, chseagle, not following the ones you've been given. Out here, we hang timers for sumthin' like that.

I have an e-copy (button-masher) of the 2009-2010 rule book & a hard copy (a real page turner) of the 2010-2011 rules book.

Neither one of them is abridged.

When the season does come around, I'll be having three things with me at the table concerning printed material.

2010-2011 Rules book, WIAA Shot clock instructions & Instructions To and Duties of Scorers and Timers for Basketball Games

The latter 2 I've had with me for the past 2 years at the table.

Right, and if I have sounded my whistle...to my way of thinking I have completed the final thing that must be done before the ball can be put in play. IOW, the ball is about to become live, and I should withhold the beckon.

Okay, now that we can work with. If you are being asked to act contrary to the rules for the sake of keeping the sub-varsity games moving along, then by all means, do so.

But please clearly acknowledge that this is what you are doing. NFHS rules do not allow either team to cause a time out to be cut short if the other team desires to take the full time. So sounding the warning horn early is clearly wrong by rule.

I was expecting someone to ask me if this was something I was doing with or without mutual consent of floor officials & coaches.

I've done shortened halftimes before as well by mutual consent.

This is not a rule that can be altered by mutual consent. So for you to openly state that you are "doing your own thing" on this, clearly in contradiction to the rules is not going to evoke kindly, probing questions. It's going to get you lit up.

During all the Varsity games I've done, the only time I ever hit the horn during TOs was to sound 1st horn/2nd horn as the required intervals.

The timing device I normally use is my watch's stopwatch function.

This year am thinking if using my iPod Touch's stopwatch function instead.

The one time I used the time-out timer on the scoreboard controls, the system froze up :(

Until WIAA instituted the 35 sec. shot clock for boys, I was using the shot clock as the time out timer during boys' games.

First you say you do it when one team comes out of the huddle; now you say you're doing it with mutual consent? Which is it? I highly doubt the <strike>floor</strike> actual officials are telling you to do this. My guess is you're mistaking their silence for consent, as they likely don't know what you're doing when you do it, so they really can't consent to it.

If it's something your AD is telling you to do, so be it, but unless you have the consent of both coaches, I think it's unethical for him to give you that direction. Even with consent, it could be argued it's improper, but not a big deal at the JV level.

And the sentence in red above is self-contradictory.

This part is just getting comical.

Comical in a really sad,sad way.

Stop It, Stop It Right Now ....
 

Agree. Stick to the rules.

Um, no. In that case you would be assuming that some of us actually care what you personally do. We don't. All we expect from any timer is for them to follow the timing rules and not make up their very own version of those rules. Iow, they do their job and leave us alone to do ours. You seem to be having some problems comprehending that.