Is this in the book?... (must be on bench by 2nd quarter)
 

At my daughter's game last night where I was keeping the book. NFHS varsity girls, private schools. Officials from a different chapter... One of our players didn't make it to the game until halftime. (For religious reasons, she can't participate in anything on Saturdays until after sundown, so this is likely to come up again.)
She was in the book, though, from the start of the game.
The U comes over and says that, by rule, she had to be there by the start of the 2nd quarter to be an eligible player, and that playing her would result in the game being a forfeit in the books.
Even though a rule is a rule is a rule... I'll give you the added background that this game had long been decided already as my daughter's team was being lapped by the other team, even by halftime.

I did not have my rule book with me at the game, but I did jump around through it once I got home late last night (and will again after I post this). If that's in the book, I cannot find it.
Can you help confirm or deny?...

Much thanks.

(p.s., coach went ahead and put her in for most of the 4th, since the game wasn't close, but this girl would've had to sit to avoid a forfeit if the game had been more competitive.)

It's not an NFHS rule. It might be a state / league rule.

Never Heard of That One
 

As far as I know as long as she's in the book she can participate. For that matter if the coach is willing to eat the T then she's in as well.

For added clarification: Texas (can't find it anywhere in the U.I.L. pages)

I agree with Bob: this is NOT an NFHS rule or requirement.

I suggest that you e-mail or call the state association and ask for clarification. I would be astonished if they were unwilling to accommodate your student's religious reasons for delaying participation. Ideally, they would send you a letter, which you could show officials who were making stuff up.

Then, put her in a game. If the officials forfeit the game, then they'll have to deal with the state association.

Unless there's some sort of league rule, this is an example of some official somewhere (not necessarily these guys) pulling a ruling out of his arse. If there is a league rule, they'd better be able to show some compelling reason for adding it or they're looking at potential litigation (it seems).

Question for Lukester: would her religion permit her to sit on the bench until the Sabbath is over (sundown). I'm assuming she's Jewish, but I don't know how the requirement works.

And yes, I'd take this issue to the state as well as contact the chapter to which those officials belong; ask them very specifically where this requirement is written.

There is no U.I.L. provision that states a player must be there by the second quarter.

There has been some discussion here on the Forum in regard to an IAABO Refresher Exam question a few years ago about that seemed to imply that if a player is not physically present, then they can't be listed on the roster in the official scorebook. If I recall, this generated a lot of controversy, among both IAABO members, and non IAABO members.

Even if this IAABO Refresher Exam "ruling" is correct, and I'm not sure that it is, the players name can be added to the scorebook at any time at the expense of a technical foul:

Three scorebook situations: adding a name to the team roster, changing a name or a number in the official scorebook, and/or having a player change a uniform number, are penalized with a team technical foul when they occur, after the ten minute time limit. These infractions occur when the scorer is advised to add to or change the official scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball becomes live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize.

After the ten minute time limit a team is charged with a maximum of one technical foul regardless of how many infractions of the following are committed: changing a designated starter, adding a name to the team member list, requiring the scorer to change a team member’s or player’s number in the scorebook, requiring a player to change to the number in the scorebook, and/or having identical numbers on team members and/or players.

Usually the issue is driving (or being driven) somewhere, as observant Jews won't use powered devices during Shabbat. Doing so is often interpreted as falling under the prohibition of working.

Thanks, I was thinking in terms of participating in the actual game, but the travel restrictions would certainly prevent my half-baked work-around from working.

No baking either. ;)

Unless you have a personal or professional interest in The Law, I don't see why anyone would expect you to know about this.

Personal interest, really, in understanding the intricacies of various religions.

Missed The Bus ???
 

Check 'em out:

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...tml#post406783

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...tml#post559193

There are other religions with similiar beliefs regarding the Sabbath, not just Judaism.

True, but the only other one that observes the Sabbath on Saturday I'm aware of is Seventh Day Adventist.

The Forum ? Polite ???
 

There's an old saying that you should never discuss sex, politics or religion in polite company.

But this is not exactly polite company.

+ 1 ! <>< :rolleyes:

Call the UIL or appropriate Texas sanctioning body and the involved officials association and ask them about the rules regarding this incident. I don't believe there is a NFHS rule for this instance.I have served as a scorekeeper at the varsity level for several years (Entering 6'th BV season and 5'th GV season)and all my officials care about is that the number of people in the book match what is on court. I always put the entire roster in the book and then write DNP next to whoever is being held out for whatever reason.
In this case the officials would've counted the book and saw one more player listed than was warming up on court.This is fine-I had a player once miss the bus but still play in the game (She showed up midway through the first quarter). She was listed on the appropriate roster I submitted to the host scorekeeper at deadline and in both books.We had no issue.Curious to see what the sanctioning body's and official's chapter response is to this incident.Keep us posted!

Thanks, everyone, for the feedback. I'll be emailing and/or calling the UIL (and maybe TASO?) tomorrow, looking for something in writing to keep on hand. Also will be checking w/ the other school to see about tracking down the officials' chapter or at least their assignor to touch base with them as well.
I will update the thread down the road.

No, they're far from the only one. There are quite a few Sabbatarian organizations that observe the Sabbath from sundown Friday until sundown Saturday. Some are split groups of Seventh Day Adventist, but many have no affiliation with SDA. Hubert Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God was a huge Sabbath-keeping organization, although they operate under a different name now. There's even a Seveth Day Baptist denomination.

I was at a preseason clinic this weekend and a question about having more players listed in the book then are present was a problem. The instructors stated it was not a problem and that if a kid showed up who is listed in the book there is no rule preventing the kid from playing.

Also listening to Seton Hall game today on the radio and one of the players showed up after the game started because of a death in his family and it was not an issue for him to play.

Yep... don't go looking for trouble. More than likely, the player is going to be able to play. Check local listings.

Never heard of such in Texas, UIL or NFHS. I can give you the name of the Rules Interpreter for the UIL if you like. We simply check bodies to names in the book; if there are more names that is okay. They may be in the locker room for all I know.

Lukester,

If it comes upon you to fight this rule, here's some possible ammunition: Look up NFHS rule 3-5-7.

To paraphrase, it says that jewelry is forbidden, unless worn for religious reasons (medical alert, too). If you have to, push that angle.

Update/resolution
 

Okay - bottom line as everyone here confirmed/suspected... no such rule w/ the U.I.L., or any other league body that might have anything to do w/ this game (nor is it anywhere in the NFHS rules, obviously).

Yesterday, the official who made the "ruling" tracked down a phone number for one of our team organization's board members and telephoned to say that he was wrong. He apologized for getting it wrong.

I was already in contact before that w/ the U.I.L. rules interpreter and hope to still get something in writing to keep on hand to avoid any such "phantom ruling" in the future...

Thanks again for all the quick input & confirmation.

Lkstr

Thanks for the follow up. Give him credit for owning up to his mistake.

Half credit. Cockamamie mistake.

Good point. I'd still like to know from which orifice this ruling was pulled.

I had a h.s. teammate that was a practicing SDA. He missed the entire first half of our team's championship game my senior year.

We made a nice comeback in the 2nd half when he arrived, but, too little too late.

We lost.

I have no hostility towards SDAs. :)