Clock/Time question
 

Hoping I can get some clarification on this one, as this has caused some rather heated discussions at our training meetings......this is one of the true/false questions on a rules test we are looking at.

A1 is fouled in the act of shooting just prior to the horn sounding to signal the end of the quarter. A1 is placed on the free throw line with 0:00 showing on the clock and no other players in the lane. (T or F)

At our camps over the summer, this situation was discussed, and we were told that with foul taking place with time on the clock (clock ran out due to lag time between when the whistle was blown the the timer could react to the sound), that some amount of time should be placed back on the clock, and A1 would then attempt the free throws with players in the lane.

This makes sense - however, no one can find anything in the NFSH books stating that time should be placed back on the clock..........and this is where the discussions get heated. If in fact what we were told at camp is correct about time being placed back on the clock, what ground would the officials have to stand on in this situation if it were to happen and the coach pulled out a rule book and asked to be shown where this were located?

Thanks in advance.

Lag time was taken out a couple years ago.

You need definite knowledge to place time back on the clock.

If you have it, then you correct the timing mistake and players will be allowed to line up in the lane. Otherwise, no players in the lane and A1 shoots their free throw(s).

I don't have my books with me.. but I believe it's in Rule 5.

And if the coach pulls out a rule book, shoot two more free throws.

NFHS Rule 5 (with emphasis on end of quarter where foul happens)
 

SECTION 6 BEGINNING, ENDING A QUARTER OR EXTRA PERIOD
ART. 1 . . . Each quarter or extra period begins when the ball first becomes live.
ART. 2 . . . Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal illuminates or sounds indicating time has expired, as in 1-14.
EXCEPTIONS:
1. If the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal, the quarter or extra period ends when the try or tap ends.
2. If a held ball or violation occurs so near the expiration of time that the clock is not stopped before time expires, the quarter or extra period ends with the held ball or violation.
3. If a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires or after time expires, but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal. The quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed. No penalty or part of a penalty carries over from one quarter or extra period to the next, except when a correctable error, as in 2-10, is rectified. No free throw(s) shall be attempted after time has expired for the fourth quarter or any extra period, unless the point(s) would affect the outcome of the game.
4. If a technical foul occurs after the ball has become dead to end a quarter or extra period, the next quarter or extra period is started by administering the free throws. This applies when the foul occurs after any quarter has ended, including the fourth quarter, provided there is to be an extra period. If there is no way to determine whether there will be an extra period until the free throws are administered, the free throws are attempted immediately, as if the foul had been part of the preceding quarter.

The blue text is only relevant if the officials don't have definite knowledge of when it should have stopped. If the officials can determine how much time was on the clock when the whistle blow or how much time was on the clock after the whistle blew but before it hit 0.0, the timer should have also been able to stop the clock. If they KNOW the whistle was blown at 0.2, they should put 0.2 back on the clock. If, after the whistle, they see it at 0.1, they put 0.1 back on. If the whistle blows and the horns sounds IMMEDIATELY after it before an official can see the clock, don't put time back....shoot the FTs with no one on the lane.

Don't put any time back on the clock. This question is directly referring to NFHS case book play 5.6. It's the exact play. The same question has been on the FED exam more than a few times.

A period ends by rule on the signal(horn or light), not the time showing on the clock(5-6-2).

You're over-thinking the hell out of the play.

PS--the answer is FALSE because the players are supposed to be on the lane, by rule.

Ummm, I guess it depends on how you understand "just prior to the horn sounding".

If you understand it to mean that the clock is showing 0:00 but the horn has not sounded, then you are correct in saying you shoot with players on the lane because the period will not end until the horn sounds.

If you understand it to mean that the horn did sound, but after the foul, then unless you have definite knowledge and put some time back on the clock the free throws will be shot with the lane cleared and the quarter ends when the free throws are complete.

I understand it to mean that the identical question has been on several NFHS tests already and it has always referred to the case play that I cited.

You can argue semantics until the cows come home, but a l'il common sense goes a long way.

Why are players on the lane if the horn has sounded and we are not putting time back on the clock?

Because the period hasn't ended, by rule(5-6-2). And if the period hasn't ended, the clock doesn't start again to end the period until the ball is legally touched as per 5-9-3&4, depending on whether the last FT was good or not.

And also because the case play that I cited states that also. :D

BillyMac would have done this eventually....

5.6 SITUATION: A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1. A1's try or tap is successful to make the score with team A leading 62-58. When the foul occurs, the clock is stopped with 0:00 showing, but no end-of-period signal (horn or light) has indicated.
RULING: A1 will attempt the free throw with the lane spaces occupied as required. The fourth period time has not expired until the period-ending signal.

As I said, that test question evolved from this case play and has been used several times already iirc.

I'm sorry, but the OP reads differently than this, and seems to me to be a relic from the days of lag time. "Just prior to the horn sounding" indicates to me that the horn does indeed sound, immediately after the foul, and therefore the period will be over as soon as the final free throw is completed.

I'm sorry also, but I've also got the answer key for that particular test. :D

LOL
Whatever you do, don't post it here!

But in the OP the horn has sounded. At least that is how I read the scenario.

And that was the point of my post. The most obvious reading of the OP IMHO is that the horn has sounded.

But it's hard to argue JR's point about having the key :D

A1 is fouled in the act of shooting just prior to the horn sounding to signal the end of the quarter.


It is impossible to say based on simply this one sentence whether the horn sounded or not. The only thing that is certain is that the foul occurred before the horn. Wording like this is certainly not unheard of on test questions.

If one really wants to split hairs, (who would do that?:D) one could point out that even if the horn did sound in the OP, and even if time is not put back on the clock, in this particular case the horn does not end the quarter.

Just a comment about this piece: the case play refers to the clock reading 0 minutes and 00 seconds, which does not take tenths into account. The clock could have been stopped with time remaining, which would explain why the horn hadn't sounded. This does not necessarily involve "lag time."

But it could involve lag time, so Snaqs could be right.

Nah, you're right! :D

Though I will point out that the lag time rule and clocks that don't show 10ths of a second are both relics from the same era, and so "the days of lag time" are also the days before 10ths became the norm.

Exactly. Vague and confusing at time, and open to individual interpretation. We've argued the terminology used in some of 'em to death here over the years. I always personally found that the best way to approch them is just take the question at apparent face value without trying to read any additional info into it.

Yup, that's how you read the scenario. But does it definitively state that the horn actually did sound?

All I can tell you that I have seen this question on several previous FED exams and it has always been there as a reference to the case play that I cited. That ain't to say that someone writing the test in the future could make up something similar with vague info and have it refer to the lag time rules instead.

GHSA Mechanic
 

This is a GHSA mechanic. It is specific to Georgia, which is why your heard about it in the Camp and you will not find any support for it in the rule book. I couldn't find it in the online "White Book" either, but it is a GHSA specific mechanic.

And furthermore, you are required to place .3 seconds on the clock. So you know what that means? No catch and shoot on a rebound. Has to be a tip.

So the GA rule requires you to put .3 back on the clock in the following scenario?

A1 is fouled in the act of shooting. Immediately after he is fouled, the horn sounds to end the period.

Yes it does
 

As far as I know yes. If we have a foul at the end of the period and then the horn sounds, we line them up and shot the free throws with .3 seconds on the clock.

Hey, don't shoot the messenger Snaqwells! :-)

I haven't even found my ammo yet. :)

Actually, I don't really have a problem with that directive. It makes sense that if you can hear a discernible lag between your whistle and the horn, some time should go back up. The rules don't allow us to do that without definite knowledge, however.
As far as state adoptions go, this may be the least objectionable from my perspective.

Weird...is this only in situations where the officials don't have definite knowledge of what to put back on the clock? What if an official sees 1.0 when he whistles a foul and for some reason, the timer doesn't stop the clock in time (wouldn't happen with our resident expert timekeeper ;))?

Yes
 

If you have definite knowledge we go with what we know. It is only in this one instance where we put .3 on the clock. It has to be shot then horn, not shot....look up at the clock see 1.0 seconds...then horn.

I disagree. To state that event A to occurs before event B implies that event B does occur. The statement establishes an order of events, not a hypothetical order of possible events.

Thanks for all of the replies..............and just as I suspected, the answers all seemed to be valid and somewhat different........much like our discussions at our meetings.

rwest -

Thanks for clarifying that point. It makes perfect sense to me, and I don't have any issues following the directive and putting the .3 on the clock. The only thing that is bothersome is the attempt to clarify this with some of the coaches. As was pointed out by another poster, it's not a good idea for a coach to pull out a rule book unless he/she wants to give up standing :) ...but at the same time, with nothing in print, it sounds rather flimsy to have to rely on the "we were told this at camp" explanation.

Oh well.............it is what it is.

Thanks again.

Better Response
 

A better way to address the coach is that it is a GHSA mechanic and that you won't find it in the rule book. It is a state adoption. If he doesn't like it and persists give him the stop sign (I know not an unofficial mechanic, but it is what we are told to do in my Association) and if he persists after that ask if he wants cookies with his T. That last part is a joke. Not T'ing up, but the cookies part.

What association are you with?

I tend to agree, since the horn is mentioned.

I would still prefer that it had said:

A1 is fouled in the act of shooting, immediately after which the horn sounds, signaling the end of the period.

I actually was in on a similar situation regarding end of the game or not.

http://forum.officiating.com/basketball/31372-horn.html

I've been able to stop the clock before with .1 seconds left on the clock for a foul, of course everyone in the stands was belly aching about it. Generally one of my hands is always on the switch in case a whistle happens.

I've been able to stop the clock at least once on each tenth of a second during the last second of a period.

You should be automatically certified based on these accomplishments alone.

Eagleboy, we always knew you were quick on the trigger...
Please accept my caution that such self-congratulatory gyrations as patting yourself on the back so vigorously may result in physical impairment much more severe than straining ones knee ligaments.

I will need to point this out.

The reason in this play (5.6) that the players line up is there is still time on the clock as the horn nor light have gone off.

If the horn has gone off and no definite time we would not line up players on the line...

0:00 ...
 

Make sure that the clock operator has the automatic horn on. If the automatic horn is off, then the buzzer won't sound. In thirty years I've had the 0:00 situation with no horn several times. I always ask the clock operator, "Is the automatic horn on?" If he replies, "No", I ask him to turn it on. In many, but not all cases, the horn sounds, so we don't line up rebounders for the free throw. In a couple of cases the horn didn't sound when the automatic horn was turned on, so we had the rebounders line up during the free throws.

Why would you ever want to turn this off?

Maybe it was off for some other sport.

Maybe it was turned off as the time was running down while the National Anthem was being played.

Maybe the console was programmed "wrong" when the new sport / game was started.

Maybe it was turned off by accident.

It's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses ...
 

There was an earthquake. A terrible flood. Locusts. It wasn't my fault, I swear to God.