Certified vs. non-certified
 

I took the recommendations of several on here & decided to e-mail the WIAA as to why there is not an organization/association for the table officials as there is for the floor officials.

The response received was that it's a good idea to have those that work the table certified like the floor officials, however "There are far too many jobs that are done in running any athletic event to certify each of the positions."

For those that have had the luxury to do games where the table crew is certified (or part of the association), what are the advantages/disadvantages?

Which do you prefer?

Are there even any state associations that certify table crews? I have never worked a game with a "certified" table. In fact, the only level where I've had any appreciable issues with the table is the sub-varsity level. And at that level, there's no way you'd get anyone to work if they had to be certified.

The games where I've had officials I know working the table, the advantages were slight. Timely reminders about a team near the bonus/double bonus without asking, no clock issues, and knowing the table crew is as unbiased as the officials working the game. Again, nothing really that great. I guess one could have peace of mind knowing the table knows what it's doing? :confused:

As to what I prefer, in an ideal world, the table crew would be as "trained" and "certified" as the officials, but I don't really think it's necessary at all, not at the high school level at least. There's enough problems as it is getting certified officials to work all games. A quick pregame with the table usually means no issues during the games I've worked.

Speaking of pregames between the floor officials & the table, as of lately (last year) all the pregame was, that I remember, was just cheking the books & asking if anyone had any questions. (Stupid me for not thinking of mentioning that the scorebooks needed reminders at that time of their duties/responsibilities :(:mad:, especially before C squad matches where it was students doing the books).

I thought I remembered in Nevada or somewhere in the southwest there was an association where the table crew were trained/certified.

Certified Or Certifiable ???
 

Here in my little corner of Connecticut, if they have a pulse they're certified. If they don't have a pulse, then we'll use them anyway. Beggars can't be choosers.

I work with several tables, HS and NCAA, that are certifiable!:eek:

What do you guys include in your quick pregame with the table crews? I need to start doing that more often when the varsity season rolls around.

I wouldn't mind being certified, even though majority of the time I do the Sub-Varsity contests.

Sure the past two years, I assisted with the 3A/4A Regionals doing scoreboard/timer, which I did to give some sense of neutrality since I did not support any of the schools participating.

The one Varsity game I did last year, due to the primary person being out sick, I was wishing I could have a table like that all the time. Of course, like has been mentioned before, it's nearly impossible to have a reliable/responsible table in the Sub-Varsity games when having to deal with students & not adults.

Chseagle,
Wisconsin has a basketball scorekeepers and timers association-info is below!
Wisconsin Scorers and Timers Association
Daniel Wildt
6220 South 39th St. - Greenfield, WI 53221-4522
(414) 423-0454 [email protected]



Zm1283,
Around here the only pregame interaction is the exchange of pleasantries, lead official checks book to make sure players on floor match what I have, and maybe some situational procedures such as not using the horn for subs.

A lot of the crews in our league have worked together for a long time so a pregame is not really essential unless there is a rule change or procedure affecting us. However, if an official were conducting a formal pre-game with my crew here is what it would consist of:

A.Crews introduce themselves
B.Book check & cell phone reminder
C.Pre-Game procedure (Introduction of starters, national anthem, pregame prayer-stuff of that nature!)
D.Any in game situational preferences (Horn/No horn for subs-as an example)
E.Let's have fun and go to work!

If it means anything, I think you're certifiable. ;)

LMAO If I was certifiable, I would of, at least once, been put in a straight jacket & locked up in a rubber room.

My reasoning for asking everyone's preference is cause of knowing that different people have been trained differently.

My thinking is that if there was an organization where table crews were certified & the rule was only those certified could be used that games, as a whole, would go more smoothly from a game management standpoint. Also this way a floor official would know exactly what training/knowledge the table crew has.

There are far too many jobs that are done in running any athletic event to certify each of the positions.

I am only concerned with the 2 (or 3 depending on the state) at the table. (Scorer, Timer/Scoreboard, & Shot Clock)

The coaches are supposed to be certified (though that can be disputed).

The floor officials are certified (otherwise they wouldn't be there).

Even Kids With Chicken Pox ...
 

As long as the hot dog concession vendor is certified, then I'm satisfied. Everyone else? Who cares? No other job is as important as getting a really good hot dog after the game.

In other words, as long as they have Food Handler Credentials, you're good?

In theory, you could demand that only those certified in cleaning toilets be allowed to do so, but when you're sitting there I think it would be difficult to tell the difference.

Nice!

PS - Thanks Billy, I'll be singing that jingle all day now.......

I see no reason to have them certified to work a volunteer position. I believe the area you're talking about, where crews are certified through the local officials' association, pays the table crews a modest fee.

I have yet to have a problem with table crew that isn't solved by a simple pregame reminding them when to buzz on subs (ie, not when the coach yells "sub") and the proper timing for buzzers.

Snaq, that's what I am meaning is that everyone that works the table is paid, not volunteer. From what I've experienced working the 3A/4A Regionals, a paid crew takes their duties/responsibilities more seriously than just a random person that volunteers.

Yes I volunteer myself, but I do it as a support of my alma mater & for the love of the game & to help better the game (if this last part makes any sense).

The regular person that does the Varsity games only gets paid $35 a night to do only 2 games ($17.50 a game) non-certified. During 3A/4A Regionals, I was getting paid a rate of $10 a game, also non-certified. There are scheduled 9 home games with both Varsities playing for 2010-2011. Using this formula, the regular person will be getting $315 minus any playoff games. If was to use the $10 a game formula, would be getting $180.

Now the question is, in those areas where the table is also certified, how much is the per game rate? Or if becomes certified, how much per game should a person working table get?

For certification purposes, the only ones I see who should be certified are the scorer (official book), timer/scoreboard, & shot clock (for those states that use it). As I've seen it, the visitors' scorebook is there just as a reference tool.

Have you seen anyone on here post that the table crews in their state is certified? No.

One poster posts that his state has an association for scorers and timers. That's it.

Most crews are volunteers. Schools can't afford it. They don't pay anyone. It doesn't exist. Nobody is certified. Don't you get it? :(

From what I've seen at the high school varsity level and below, I have no way of knowing which crews get a small payment and which ones don't. Virtually every crew I've seen at the high school level is doing a good job.

There's no problem that needs fixing here.

FWIW the vast majority of the table crews around here from varsity/JV games all the way down to junior high games are paid.

How long could it possibly take to become "certified" to be a clock operator. A person of reasonable intelligence who has never even been to a game could be taught to do a credible job of this in a matter of minutes.

Next question: Do you think we have enough apples in the world?

There can never be enough apples, oranges, bananas, or nuts in the world :D

Here, too. It's not a lot. Maybe $15 or $20 a game. But official scorer and timer get paid.

Maybe the most important instruction to a new scorebook keeper: Make sure you and I have eye contact. Look me in the eye! Then record the foul.

I sat at the table once and ran the clock / scoreboard during a camp. I had trouble doing this, even with a running clock. Gave me appreciation for the job -- if you're doing the time, score, fouls, etc. it's not *that* easy.

I started running the clock/book for "real" (i.e., non-camp) games when I was a wee lad. It's not that difficult, but it definitely takes a little time to get it down cold.

But my first scrimmage this year one college kid was doing book, clock, scoreboard and the shot clock. Granted he wasn't keeping individual fouls or scores, and it was a running clock, but I was still impressed at his ability to do all three jobs. Did a pretty good job of it too.

I've seen that happen where the floor official actually looked at the scorer & said "pay attention or you will be replaced" when was reporting a foul.

That can depend on the scoreboard controls being used & the person's knowledge of the game.

The switch is either "on" or "off". It can't take more than 15 seconds to learn how to switch between the two positions.

"Start the clock when someone inbounds touches the ball. Stop it when the whistle blows. Any questions? Let's review -- when will you start the clock on the jump ball?"

Repeat if needed.

Total time less than 1 minute.

There aren't that many (any?) exceptions or unusual circumstances to learn.

Short And Sweet ...
 

Except on a successful free throw.

It doesn't get much simpler than that.

Yes, it's really that easy just to do time on the scoreboard, however I was also meaning doing score & fouls on the scoreboard. Each manufacturer has a different setup for their board's controls.

So far, I've used scoreboard controls from 2 manufacturers (All-American Scoreboards & Daktronics). There are differences between the two boards on the control schemes.

For the Daktronics board scheme that I used last, in order for points to be on the board 1st we had to press Pts. +1 (or +2 or +3 depending on the point value of the shot) then using the numerical keypad we had to input the player's number. Same thing for the fouls. (The Daktronics Board automatically kept track of the player points (as well as overall team score, player fouls, & team fouls)). When there were subs there were a couple of options.

For the All-American Scoreboard scheme at CHS that I use throughout the season, all we do for points is press Pts. +1 (or +2 or +3). For fouls, 1st we have to press player foul, input player number, enter, foul number, enter, then we have to press team foul, foul number, enter. For the All-American Board everything had to be inputted.

So yes being timer can be easy, yet it can also be hard, if a person doesn't know what they're doing.

In which case he has no business sitting behind the table.

In the grand scheme of things, keeping track of fouls and score, while a major convenience for everyone involved, is secondary to correct timing. The first thing I'm worried about the TIMER doing is...well keeping time. Second would be score just cause you'll have the coaches and players going crazy if the score is wrong on the board. The rest is just gravy.

Very true about all of the above.

For me it's easy to do all of the above, then of course I am in constant communication with the scorer about the score & the fouls (which as listed below, I have to tell them who scored or fouled at times).

Yes it's a convenience to have the score & fouls posted. However since majority of the games I do are sub-Varsity, sometimes the scoreboard is the most accurate on both the score & the fouls, especially if the scorer is a snot-nosed kid off the street.

This is a huge issue in our state.

Scoreboard operators for games from the 7th grade and up must belong to the Registry of Qualified Official Timers Association. (RoQOTA)

RoQOTA has essentially unionized the position, and timers receive $35 for middle school games, $50 for sub-varsity games, and $75 for varsity games.

They also have an exclusivity clause with the state association that they must work with Daktronic scoreboards.

Schools may request a waiver from the state in order to use non-Daktronic scoreboards, but must pay a fine of $500 to RoQOTA for doing so.

It is not uncommon for games to be forfeited in this area at the beginning of the season because the timer is either uncertified, or the school has the wrong company's scoreboard and has not paid the fine. This will likely happen even more so with financial cuts that are being implemented at many schools.

An unintended consequence of this has also been that it is getting harder and harder for schools to find qualified official scorers, as that is not a certified position, and many of the workers who used to do that job now hold out for the better paying timing jobs and the prestige of being a member of RoQOTA.

I have seen quite a bit of resentment between timers and scorers where the scorer will say things to the timer such as "that is team A's fifth foul," and the timer will respond "you aren't authorized or qualifed to tell me what I need to put on the scoreboard."

I have heard rumors of the scorers are attempting to organize an association as well, but it seems that they have not been able to get on the same page, and can not agree on an exclusivity deal with a scorebook company such as Mark V or Score-Right, because there are so many different books out there.

It should be interesting to see how this plays out over the next year or two.

You're kidding, right?

Ok first off, what state is this in & who came up with this hare brained idea?

2nd, what type of training must they go through in order to be certified?

I feel sorry for the schools to have to shell out so much money for a position that I'm willing to do at only $10 a game.

However from my experience with the Daktronic boards, I like them far better than the All-American Scoreboards, even though there's a bit more to operating them.

I think you did. :o

Eagle is packing his bags.

Time to hang up the whistle and start some timing! ;):D

If it was here in Washington State I would of known about it.

Also I know not all schools use Daktronic Scoreboards here in Washington State.

I wouldn't be so harsh on the schools, nor would I ask for the pay to be so high. At the most I would charge $25-50 a game at Varsity level.

Yeah whatever state that is, it seems to pay more to be a timer than a floor official, now that does suck.

There are limits to how far love can take you, I suppose.

I took lp's post to be completely tongue-in-cheek. I'd think schools would pay for a third officials rather than allow the state to mandate timers from an approved association.

The question that was asked was "How long could it possibly take to become "certified" to be a clock operator."

you responded and I responded to that. It has (or had) nothing to do with "score and fouls."

If you're just doing team totals, then it also takes < 1 minute to learn (Home score +2; Visitor Fouls +1, etc).

I agree that if you're also tracking individual team members who are in the game and their points and fouls that it takes more practice.

It would be nice to have all table crews go through some level of training but lets be realistic.
A.The crews at many schools have worked together for several seasons and do a good solid job.There are only a handful of crews in our area who could be labeled as deficient.
B.The money ,in this time of budget-cutting, is not there to pay for area wide training for the table crew (clock/scoreboard operator,shot clock operator-if necessary, and varsity scorekeeper(s-if different for both teams)
C.That being said I choose to focus on the schools with deficient crews.

If I were the genie with a magic wand here is how I would handle this very good idea-

A.Referees are to work their games as normal with the standard pre-game talk.If there is a significant issue (such as scoreboard being wrong, clock being improperly started & stopped, scorebook being wrong...etc) a report shall be filed with the area association serving that school along with the appropriate state sanctioning body.

B.3 bad reports on a school's table crew at any level in a season will necessitate an email to that school's AD.Basically it would say "Your school's table has been found by our officials to be derelict in their duties on multiple occassions.Please remedy the situation in whichever way you see fit (changing personnel or review of the duties for the crew).

C.On the fourth bad report a school shall be required to attend a retraining course taught by the association's instructional chair (to be paid one varsity game fee plus $25.00-mileage and materials).If such an issue occurs during the playoffs visiting officials must submit a report to the host school's association along with the appropriate state association.Playoff schools with four bad reports during the regular season must attend re-training before being allowed to host postseason competition or give up their hosting rights.Schools missing the playoffs or earning their fourth report during postseason must go through training before submitting their master schedules to the assigner or lose their hosting rights for the following season.

Like I said this probably only applies to a handful of schools but it will force them to shape up and fly right or lose hosting privileges.

Bob, the tracking of who is in the game & their point totals is only on the Daktronic boards which I've used only twice in the past 2 seasons at the 3A/4A Regionals (which thanks to WIAA will no longer be happening since they reformulated how state basketball is being done).

On the All-American board, all I have to keep track of on an individual is the number of fouls they have.

I've also used to operate a board with mechanized controls (switches & dials, not computerized) where all we did was track player fouls by asking the book what foul that was on the person.

So I've had experience with both setups, as well as the outdated.

Actually everything you have said isn't such a bad idea. Every state & every local association should implement everything you said. This way everyone is actually on the same page.

Like stated in earlier posting elsewhere on the forum, concerning the AD, it is his/her responsibility to make sure that game management personnel be kept up to date on the rules/regulations that affect their position, this would be a great way to make sure that happens.

Again, the number of crews who can't handle this is so small that it's not really a problem. If a call to the AD doesn't solve the problem, I doubt any sort of remedial training is going to solve it.

For me. I've had no coaching/training from the AD, I've been teaching myself what I need to know. Although it would be nice if I did have another source to turn to, besides on here, for the rules/regulations & training.

I do agree that the number is small where there are significant incidents that do cause questioning to happen.

I think you misunderstood me. By "a call to the AD," I meant from the officials if there's a problem. This is one of those jobs the AD is only going to think about if there's a problem. He expects it to run smoothly because it's not rocket surgery (or brain science).
If there's a problem, the officials should contact the AD through their proper channels and let him perform any necessary remedial training (or have it done by a designee).

If the AD won't take care of the problem, then having some remedial training in place isn't going to solve it either; and your clock operator is likely the least of your worries for that game. I'd be willing to bet the other duties (game management) aren't being performed adequately either.

Concerning the AD or other game management personnel, when I am at the table, rarely is the AD or other non-table game management there watching every move I do.

However when I'm not working at the table, the table is being carefully watched.

From my experience the AD that was here a couple of years ago had a better sense of what needed to be done than the current one.

So basically, if there was a problem with table operations the remedial training would have to be done by someone outside the school/school district.

Okay, let me clarify again. The only way I'm addressing anything with the AD regardign the crew during the game is if they're being biased and beligerent; or just plain not paying attention. And then it's going to be to ask for a replacement.
Anything less than replacing them in game, I'll get word to him later, after I'm home, through the channels approved by my local association. He'll deal with it after the fact, not during the game.

Snaq, I knew what you were meaning.

Concerning not paying attention, especially since majority of my games are sub-varsity, I have to deal with that basically every game. Hence one reason why I've changed the table setup around when I am working as timer.

Also before the game or during dead ball periods I'll remind those that are disrupting the table that trying to work & need to focus on the game.

I really wish there were only 3 people at the table & not 4. However, I know that'll never happen.

There's only one person needed when you're there.

SUPER CHSEAGLE!

http://www.megomuseum.com/motd/superclown.jpg

So do the other three people.

OUCH! lol

And I wonder who is watching the table when you're not working.....???

Reminds me of Superhost!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_pKcB8A-v9w.../superhost.jpg

But doesn't everyone agree that there should be some consequence for table apathy/ineptitude such as losing your hosting privileges for the postseason or following year? Without that threat of lost revenue (ticket and snack bar sales) hanging over a school's head AD's can just leave the same mediocre crew in there without being asked to fix a problem.

We don't allow students to play if they are academically (or otherwise)ineligible-if they do that school needs to forefeit immediately.Why should we allow a school to host home games if their support team is not up to the task? What I propose-as highly unlikely as it is-if adopted makes schools accountable for the actions of their table crews.

Pen Or Pencil ??? Discuss ...
 

chseagle, SCalScoreKeeper ...

Maybe there should be a Scorekeeping Forum?

Either the AD or another designated person

I whole-heartedly agree with your thinking.

I noticed last year during the one game that I was Varsity timer/scoreboard that the table was really on the ball on things getting done. However the times I have done varsity shot clock, there is a bit of lag time from reporting to posting of fouls on the board to making sure everyone's information was the same.

Everyone involved in the game needs to be held accountable, not just those on the court.

Can we take up a collection to sponsor a webhosting package for them, somewhere on an interweb far, far away?

Hmmm, shouldn't we be trying to keep our friends close and our enemies even closer? ;)

Sorry, BITS, boob ≠ enemy!
Let 'em go....

It depends on the day ;)

I thought that the enemy to any official was a coach or another person that argued every single call?

You can add to that anybody that works on the table crew and doesn't know sh!t but tries to tell us how to do our job anyway.

Or anybody who works on the table crew but isn't actually willing or able to do the job and who forces the officials on the floor to constantly check up on them.