Free Throws
 

Situation from mens league. A1 gets fouled (non-shooting). His hand gets jamed due to the foul. Frustrated from the 'injury', he kicks the ball. We call a 'T' on A1. While I am reporting the fouls to table and determining if team is in the bonus, partner is having Team B shoot the 'T'. Well, Team A is in the bonus, thus A1 needs to shoot a 1 and 1. I know proceedure is to have A1 shoot the 1and1, then member from team B shoot the 'T', then mid court throw-in for Team B opposite the table.

If this was a NFHS game, would we disguard the Free Throws by Team B (made or missed), and follow the correct proceedure? Or allow the Free throws by Team B, have A1 shoot the free throws and have team B take the ball OOB?

Yes, I was disappointed that partner started shooting, without confering with me. No, I did not talk to him after the game about this situation. Not a battle for me to choose at this time.

Similar?
 

8.7 SITUATION B: B1 fouls A1 just as the first quarter ends and then A1 retaliates and intentionally contacts B1. A1’s foul is a technical foul as it occurred during a dead ball. Team A is in the bonus. The officials by mistake administer the penalty for the technical foul before the free throw(s) by A1. RULING: The penalties should have been administered in the order in which the fouls occurred. However, since all merited free throws were attempted it does not constitute a correctable error situation. The second quarter will begin with an alternating-possession throw-in. (4-19-5c)

The second quarter begins with the AP throw-in, because that's how it would normally start, since the T occurred as part of the previous quarter. But in the original situation, it's not the end of the quarter, so how do we resume play? Do we line up and allow rebounding after the 1-and-1, since the technical free throws have already been shot and we can't correct it? Or do we clear the lane and give Team B the ball at the division line because that's what "should have happened"?

In HS I believe we shoot 1 & 1 w/nobody in marked lane spaces & give Team B the ball at the division line since thats part of the penalty for Ts.

Same sitch but in NCAA-M, do we shoot the T then the 1 & 1 with everybody lined up & play on?

Thanks BNR!

Meaning you were using NCAA-M rules? In that case, what you wrote in RED is incorrect.

Possession changed when B1 got the ball at his disposal for the technical free throw so you can't just line 'em for the 1-and-1 and go. Team B is entitled to a throw-in from the division line.

Tref For NCAA-M the correct procedure is to shoot the T then line up for the 1-and-1 so it would not have been a correctable error until Team A had the ball at its disposal for the subsequent throw-in.

so let me try a newbie recap; (picture will be provided by Billymac) Count B's basket(s) if made, then still allow A's 1 & 1 (with the lane cleared ) then division line throw in for B and play on ?

How's This ???
 

Try this one
 

[QUOTE=BadNewsRef;694585]Meaning you were using NCAA-M rules? In that case, what you wrote in RED is incorrect. QUOTE]
We were not using NCAA-M rules. We were using NFHS rules. But when you work men's leagues you bend the rules to get the job done.
My concern was "If this was a high school game?"
We shot the 'T', we shot the 1 and 1 (no one lined up), then gave the ball to Team B because the 'T' was the last foul.

[quote=Zoochy;694609]Which is exactly what you should have done.

So the player who got fouled (A1) needs to shoot the one and one, is also the player who got the T, in NCAA-M we would shoot the T, then line the players up for A1's one and one?

thanks for the clarification!

Sounds like you're referring to the rules regarding correctable errors. This situation is not a correctable error, however.

So while I agree that Team B "should" get a throw-in as part of the penalty for the T, is there a rule basis for shooting the 1-and-1 with the lane cleared?

Agree, Not One Of The Five Correctable Errors ...
 

Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set aside and results in:
a. Failure to award a merited free throw.
b. Awarding an unmerited free throw.
c. Permitting a wrong player to attempt a free throw.
d. Attempting a free throw at the wrong basket.
e. Erroneously counting or canceling a score.
If an error is corrected, play shall be resumed from the point of interruption to rectify the error, unless it involves awarding a merited free throw(s) and there has been no change of team possession since the error was made, in which case play shall resume as after any free-throw attempt(s).

Inquiring minds want to know.

Yes, since part of the T's penalty has not yet been applied, the ball will be dead at the conclusion of the last FT.

And, this actually is a correctable error. It is the failure to award merited FTs. The T FT's were awarded having skipped the 1+1 FTs....one official continued on with the game having not awarded the FTs...no different than if a throwin had occurred before recognizing that the 1+1 was not administered. It doesn't matter that the partner or the table knew there should have been a 1+1, it is about what was administered.

Rule reference?

Hmmmmm, while I like the rationale, I'm pretty sure that there's a case play or a FED interpretation that says it's NOT a correctable error. I'll go through the old interps that BillyMac posted sometime this week to see if I can find what I'm thinking of.

Well, seeing you're back on FED rules now.....

2004-05 Basketball Rules Interpretations:
Situation 3: A1 is fouled by B2 and is awarded two free throws. The foul is B2's fifth foul. The new trail official reports the fifth foul to team B's coach. Before a substitute is made the lead official incorrectly permits A1 to to attempt the first free throw. The officials realize the errror and huddle to discuss the situation.
RULING: <font color = red>The result of the first attempt shall stand.</font> Team B's head coach shall be notified of B2's disqualification. Once B2 has been replaced, A1 shall attempt the second free throw. <font color = red>This is an official's error and not a correctable-error situation according to rule 2-10.</font> (2-8-3, 4-4-1, 6-1-2c, 10-5-1d)

Close enough for me. Just extrapolate the logic used to the situation being discussed.

Bookmark this. It's a great aid:
http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...s-archive.html

Nice cite, but it has absolutely nothing to do with shooting FTs out of order. It only addresses a player not being DQ'd properly---it merely says action that occurrs between when they should have DQ'd and when they are actually DQ shall stand. They didn't award an unmerited FT nor did they not award a merited FT.

The difference is that when the ball becomes live for the wrong FT, it becomes a correctable error situation...the deserved FTs were not awarded and the game has progressed.

That's an interesting way to look at it. But what if the mistake is discovered after all 4 free throws have been attempted.

Then there's no way to call it a correctable error, because all the merited free throws were awarded. So if we realize the mistake between the two sets of free throws, it's correctable; but if we realize it after all the free throws it's not? That doesn't seem very plausible to me.

Sticking to NFHS rules.

Team B is in possession of the ball when the error was discovered; A1 shoots his 1-and-1 and then Team B retains possession.

Let's change it up a little by taking away the Technical Foul aspect.

A1 fouled (7th team foul). Officials award spot throw-in. A1 violates on throw-in. B1 gets ball at his disposal for subsequent throw-in. B1 calls a time-out. During time-out it's discovered A1 should have shot 1-and-1.

Are you lining them up or are you going to clear the lane and give the ball back to Team B for a throw-in?

Agree. In the situation being discussed, all merited FT's were awarded. No un-merited FT's were awarded. Nothing else in 2-10 is remotely applicable. It doesn't meet any criteria of a correctable error. And the citations given so far outline generally the direction that the FED wants us to use in situations like this imo.

They can't cover every separate situation in the case book but they can give you general direction. And I feel that they've done that in this case. There's nothing else available in the rules to hang your hat on either that would justify calling it differently.

How about blowing our whistle prior to the incorrect shooter/team releases the 1st FT try? That would kill the officials mistake, no?

I believe there's a procedure to help us eliminate this as well...
I dont know "who" called the T but if we confer PRIOR to heading to the table, then our partner cant administer incorrectly, especially in a 2 person game.
Personally, I like to have the closest non-calling official INTERCEPT the calling official on all Ts/Ints/Flagrants. What do you have & how will we resume play, by rule??

Maybe I was not clear enough in my original post. This was in a mens league. We bend mechanics proceedures. We make it easy on ourselves.
Now I am taking the situation to 'What if' it happened in a high school game.

As stated in several relpys, NFHS proceedure would be after completion of shooting the 'Technical foul' we would shoot the 1 and 1 without lining up the players and have Team B inbound the ball at the division line across from the table resulting from the 'T'.

No, you were crystal in your initial post. All I'm saying is in any game, it would be better to blow the whistle prior to the mistake occuring. I dont care what level I'm working, I want to prevent our mistakes if I can.

I do plenty of mens wreck games as well, and yes, we bend the rules a bit too. Grown men playing by HS rules? One has to know how to manage those games accordingly. Im just saying, I look for opportunities to "step up" in that setting as well. Even if we dont confer, if I'm at the table & my partner is administering FTs in the wrong order. Why not blow my whistle & get it right in preperation for the next sanctioned game?

Not only are you wrong but grunewar has already given you the case play in this thread.

8.7 SITUATION B: B1 fouls A1 just as the first quarter ends and then A1 retaliates and intentionally contacts B1. A1’s foul is a technical foul as it occurred during a dead ball. Team A is in the bonus. The officials by mistake administer the penalty for the technical foul before the free throw(s) by A1.
RULING: The penalties should have been administered in the order in which the fouls occurred. However, since all merited free throws were attempted it does not constitute a correctable error situation. The second quarter will begin with an alternating-possession throw-in. (4-19-5c)

Agree...once all the FTs had been taken. It doesn't not address the situation where the first FTs were skipped and not yet taken....which is a correctable error. They are merited FTs that were not awarded and the ball had been made live for other action. If they are not yet taken, it makes no distinction between skipping them because of getting the order wrong vs. skipping them because they table has the bonus count wrong....they were not taken when merited.

In the out-of-order situation, there is no longer anything to correct once they're taken...so it is no longer a correctable error....but it was until they were taken. Once they're taken, the situation becomes an official's mistake rather than a correctable error.

I understand your premise but I still disagree.

The play itself says, "The officials by mistake administer the penalty for the technical foul before the free throw(s) by A1." That statement does not indicate the foul FTs have already been taken. We all know how screwy some of these plays are worded. If we've shot the T but haven't shot the 1 & 1 yet, I'm not going to make the team re-shoot the technical just so we can say we did it in the correct order, when the case book says it's not an issue as long as all merited FTs are awarded.

While the statement of the play doesn't directly say they have been taken, it can be read that way, and the ruling makes it clear that they were taken by concluding....

since all merited free throws were attempted it does not constitute a correctable error situation

OK. I don't see anyone suggesting otherwise.

If you've not shot merited FTs and have resumed the game by awarding other FTs or awarding a throwin, it becomes a correctable error situation...that is the basic definiation of a correctable error. The ball was put in play (made live) without awarding merited FTs. As a result, you'll shoot them at the time it is discovered that they need to be taken...assuming the time window for correcting the error has not passed. The FTs already taken for another foul of any kind shall stand as well as any other action that had occurred. You resume play whereever you were before taking the FTs....possession OOB as part of the penalty for the T (in this case) or possession OOB for the team that has the ball if the throwin for the T had already occurred.

If it so happens that you realize that they were taken out of order after they've been taken, it WAS a correctable error situation but it has already been corrected....so it is now just a mistake that no longer needs correction.

Oh well...I know what I'm doing if we screw this up. :)

I'm pretty sure I do, too. But let's compare notes. What are you doing?

You're clearing the line for the 1-and-1 and giving Team B the ball at the division line.

I just want to clarify my understanding here. On the OP having that situation applied to middle/jr. high or high school ball, the correct procedure is that all technicals are shot after any free throws needing to be shot. Do I still remember some of the rules? (I had a rocky and very short season last year, hoping I haven't lost all of what I learned last year. Is there an 'intro' thread I came bore you all with my story?)

I was given both an 08-09 IAABO HS edition rule book as well as 09-10 NFHS rule book for use here in CO. So I guess we call by NFHS, never had that discussion in our meetings, have read from both and been right using either book.

What city do you work in? As far as I knew, the entire State of Colorado is affiliated with IAABO Board 4.

We are. I can possibly work anywhere east of I-25 to basically anything south of US 50. Its a big area and we cover the smaller scholls north of highway 50 as well. I live in rural area.

Ahhh so I see. Well have fun with that & good luck to you!!!

The correct procedure is to enforce the fouls in the order they occurrred.

If that doesn't happen, and it turns out that FTs are shot "out of order", then it's a mistake, but all the FTs count.

I don't think there's really any such thing as "IABBO Rules." There are IABBO mechanics, and maybe some state adopted rules.

For My Next Trick ...
 

God no. Please don't give them any ideas. The IAABO mechanics are bad enough.