I am helping out with a rookie class on Tues. evenings...last night we had some rec teams come in and had the rookies ref their games...I created a minor ruckus amongst the other "teachers" there and wanted input from the members of the board here...here is the situation:

Post player A5 has ball in low block and spins around defender B5...A5 takes one dribble, then their legal step and goes up for a lay-in, which goes in...we have a whistle, foul called on B5, and rookie waves off shot and basket and calls B5 for a hand-check...gives A ball oob under the basket...

Afterward, I make the comment that it should NOT have been a handcheck call, but a push, and count the basket and give them one shot, or else call nothing at all...my point was that a handchecking call should never be made when the offensive player is going to beat the defender to the basket and have a legit shot attempt...let them take the shot, and if the contact causes problems, call it a push or hold...by calling handchecking, we are essentially saying the player was still a ballhandler and not shooting and we have put the offensive player at a disadvantage by not seeing the entire play...

Needless to say, there was some strong disagreement from some of the other "teachers"...am I way off base here?? Any gems I can take back to the group to help them see my point???

I am a little confused about where the foul occurred. If it was on the spin, I would probably call a "hold" and give them the ball oob. If it were on the shot, I wouldn't call a hand check (I probably wouldn't call a push either, but that's another thread) I would probably call a "hold" if B5 was beaten or "illegal use of hands (hack)" if fouled on the arm etc. while shooting.

Theoretically, I agree with what you are saying about the ball handler vs shooter and seeing the whole play. Usually, I will call a HC on a drive or move to the basket and generally outside the key.

I may draw fire on this, but handchecking is one thing that I think the NBA has a better perspective on than we do at the HS and possibly even at the college level. In the NBA, officials are to judge whether the speed, balance, or quickness of the dribbler have been affected by the contact. If so, then call a foul. If not (as it sounds in the case you describe), then let the play continue to the hoop. It's just my opinion, but I think that giving the speed-balance-quickness guideline is more helpful than trying to apply a vaguer sense of advantage/disadvantage. The result should be the same; since affecting one of those three things will put the dribbler at a disadvantage. But I like to add speed/balance/quickness to my mental game. I think it's helped me, personally.

Chuck, I agree, and that is what I was trying to point out - you just did it more eloquently...stripes, to clarify - the contact was a hand on the hip while A5 had picked up their dribble and was taking their step toward the basket...

<b>a hand on the hip while A5 had picked up their dribble and was taking their step toward the basket</b>

As I understand this, unless the "hand on the hip" is doing some pushing, I'm not going to whistle at all. If I do, I'm signaling a push. I'm probably pretty lenient on what constitutes the shooting motion.

Not sure I agree fully here. A "hand on the hip" is
*usually* doing some pushing and is enough to get my
attention. Whether I whistle or not depends on how well the
dribbler can play through it. Usually.

A hand on the hip? Sounds like a no call....unless the player is displaced. Is that call a good one? Are we calling something that matters? Are we disrupting the flow of the game? Very little contact and a made basket, I think I'm letting them play on.

my 2 cents
 

First, you have to see the play.

For me to consider the contact a foul, the path of A5 would have to be altered because of the hand on the hip (could be the speed or direction that gets altered). If I deem the contact was a foul, I then have to decide where the foul occurred. If on the dribble, I would call before the shot, otherwise, we shoot 1 after the made basket. I am there to ref the game, not the stupidity of the defense. Even though the result of the contact by B5 was not successful (A5 still scoring) the foul still occurred.

Now, in the play you described, it didn't sound much like a foul. It would have to be pretty a obvious hold/push for me to blow the whistle - but if it did happen, I would blow the whistle. Would you withhold the whistle for a smack on the wrist and A5 still scoring? No advantage/disadvantage there.

Sounds like a no call to me.
Let me bring up another point.
IMHO, too many referees DO NOT give "continuation" to a player going to the basket.
I can't tell you how many time's I've worked with partners
(AAU,High School) that call a foul, and then say "no shot, on the floor."
If a player has begun a "shooting motion" and is fouled, it is a shooting foul. NF,NCAA, and NBA/WNBA rules ALL READ THE SAME.
Even in watching tape this year, many plays that I said were not shooting, upon further review, should have been called two shot fouls.
My two cents. :D

There's no question in my mind about whether a foul should have been called or not - it shouldn't have in this play...no one disagreed with me when I pointed that out...where the disagreement started was when I said that IF a call was made, it surely better not be a handcheck...again, I felt it was penalizing the offensive player who made a nice move, and classified the shooter as a ball-handler...

Drake, do you have anything to add about the "sbq" guidelines? You have more experience with the NBA guidelines than I do. I'd like to hear your thoughts about it.

Chuck

As far as what foul was called (push, hand-check, or hold), I'm not sure that's important. I think the situation just shows that a young ref usually blows their whistle as soon as they see something rather than holding their whistle and waiting to see if the contact matters. I've "spaced out" a few times in my career and given the wrong signal at the table (a block when it was a push or a hold when it was a handcheck etc.) and I don't think anyone gave a rat's patootie. :-)

Z

Handchecking should only be called.............
 

when a dribbler movement has been altered. When a player is mainly going north and south. And if a dribbler is driving to the basket and the defender will not get his hand off of him as he goes up for a shot, call it then. Usually the defender will stop riding the dribbler/shooter and get the message.

Peace

The point of rocky's post is to the type of foul that has been committed on a drive/shot. I agree with him that the call should not be a hand check. It should probably be a push.

Coaches are finally understanding the concept of the handcheck foul. They do not consider it to be applicable when a shot is going up. Make the call a push, as coaches relate handchecking to hindering the dribbler. Giving a little in order to be able to sell and communicate better with the coaches is a very small price to pay.

I'll disagree with you. Why must it not be a handcheck? A handcheck is really just a redundant foul type; it can always be called either a push or illegal use of hands. Show me a handcheck that is not "illegal use of hands". There is nothing saying that a handcheck can't occur during a try. I've often called and seen called the handcheck when the player is driving the lane and in the act of shooting. If they are being guided with the hand away from the desired path, handcheck. If they are displaced from a position, push. If the are prevented from moving, hold. All could be called illegal use of hands too. :)

There is a lot of overlap in the definitions of a foul. All that really matter is was it really a foul. What you call it has a lot of flexibility.

I agree with Camron -- there's no reason this couldn't be a hand-check foul.

From the NCAA Women's POE: "On a drive to the basket when the dribbler has a hand placed on her, officials need to be aware of whether the dribbler has one more dribble to take. If so, officials should have a patient whistle and call the hand-checking personal foul as the player shoots."

I agree with Camron and Bob. J about what to call the foul, but I would add a little different perspective on how to handle the whole situation. If the foul happened before continuation could be given, then the shot shouldn't count, and the penalty would be ball oob or the 1-&-1 or whatever. But then, too, THE WHISTLE SHOULD HAVE BEEN BLOWN BEFORE THE SHOT WAS COMPLETED. I understand waiting till the whole play is finished, but if the ref is going to wait, the shot should count. If it wasn't serious enough contact to call at the moment, it wasn't serious enough to call. Since this shot was made, maybe it would have been a good no-call.

Thanks for the POE, Bob, and I agree whole-heartedly that on a drive to the basket, that's what you do...was this play really a drive to the basket? The way the hand-checking POE's have always been explained to me is that it applies to the player who starts outside and drives to the basket...a one-dribble drop step or spin move, after the player has picked up their dribble??? Shouldn't be a hand-check call then, should it??

Good point. How about this: if the shot was TAKEN - missed
or made - maybe it's a good no-call. Assuming the foul
came before the shot and there was no foul on the shot of
course.

Question?
 

Are you sure it doesn't matter what we call the foul, as long as A foul is called?

I have been told that to move to the varsity level, then to higher varsity games, you need to catch the eye of evaluators and the varsity coach that may be watching the JV game and show him you know what you're doing. Their point being that if you call a foul and report illegal use of the hands instead of a push, the coach/evaluator may think you do not have a firm grasp on the rules?

Just a thought.

dj,
I like to use hand checking, it is a descriptive signal and tells just what the fouler did with one hand.
I see no reason <u>not to call</u> a hand check in your case, but if I am on the court with you, I'll be thinking the ball handler was fouled on the dribble.
mick

To add a new wrinkle to the answers already given - Though the play itself was different, a few weeks back I saw an Woman’s NCAA tape during a class that advocated calling an intentional foul when the move has started to the basket and the defender is clearly not playing the ball.

In this case, two points for the made basket, two shots for the intentional, and A getting the ball back would make B5 think long and hard about handchecking again.

Mmmm, I don't know about that, but I imagine it would get
your women's NCAA assignor thinking long & hard about your
future with him.

Actually it is in the women's POE's for this season...it is pretty specific in that it only involves a drive to the basket when the defender is handchecking from behind trying to get the official to call the handcheck and effectively stop the offensive player from getting off a shot...so the original play in this post would not fall under this category...

I think it is saying that you can still have handchecking when the player is shooting and that officials should be patient and not take away a good shot opportunity...not that a handcheck can only occur on the drive.

That said, I would personally call the original case a push.

Handchecking from behind? Isn't that a push?

Maybe it's an intentional push :(

If it is hard enough, ...that works.