Here's One For Ya!?!

[walt]

7th and 8th grade CYO playoff game. Team A up 8 with 1:45 left. Throw in after a timeout by B. B-1 inbounds the ball by rolling it on the floor towards B-2. The ball has little or no momentum and comes to a stop in B's backcourt. B-2 makes no attempt to pick up the ball and no one else from B is in the backcourt. B-1 runs down the floor leaving B-2 alone with this stopped ball in the backcourt. No one from A makes any attempt to get the ball and B-2 just stands there! I was observing two of our associations JV officials work the ball game as part of our rating committee along with several of my colleagues. The trail official began a 10 second count and when he reached ten, he called a held ball (since no team control had been established was his reasoning) and went to the possession arrow which favored A. Team B coach argues that the 10 second count can only begin when his team had control. The coach tells the official he was instructing B-2 on what he wanted done and since A wasn't pressuring, there was no need to pick up the ball. He argued that the clock couldn't start and neither could the count until the ball was touched inbounds. The calling official asked us after the game whether we felt he did the right thing and whether there was anything in the rules to cover that situation. He said he started his ten second count because he felt that B-2 could have easily picked up the ball. We all admitted we'd never seen anything like that before! The throw-in count ended when the ball was released but the throw-in doesn't end until the passed ball touches or is touched by an inbounds player other than the thrower. That didn't happen here. We were perplexed but agreed with how the situation was handled given the circumstances. What do you guys think? Is this in the rules anywhere (I couldn't find it)! Would you have agreed with the calling official that B-2 was "in control" (it does not meet the definition of control)? By the way, Team A won by 12.

[Mark Padgett]

I'm sure someone will come up with the "actionless contest" argument but I don't think it applies here. That rule (NF 10-1-5) is called when a team delays and the other team cannot do anything about it. In this case, team A could have come and got the ball at any time (assuming there wasn't some "no backcourt guarding" rule in effect in this game like there is in some rec leagues).

In any case, the 10 second count was flat out wrong. There was never team control. To establish team control at a time when there is none, such as during a throwin, you must have player control established. To establish player control, a player must be holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds. This did not happen here, thus no player control, thus no team control, thus no legal 10 second count.

This wouldn't have been a problem if the clock was running, since it eventually would run out. But coming out of a timeout, there was no clock going.

What would I have done? Now that I've had time to think about it, I would have blown my whistle, called it inadvertant and made team B inbound again. If they did it again, I would do it again. I think eventually, someone would touch the ball inbounds.

Another option would be to blow the inadvertant whistle, make team B inbound again and claim B1 stepped over the line while inbounding, then give the ball to team A.

While none of these "solutions" may seem fair or within the letter or spirit of the rules, you gotta admit they're at least creative.

[Tim Roden]

I think the correct action is to stand there like the statue of liberty until something happens. By rule you can't start any count or clock until the ball is touched. There is no advantage to even doing this. I can understand if it were with the clock running down or waiting for the ball to get to a good spot to pick up the ball.

[BigDave]

Here's my stab at this weird situation.

The 10 sec. count doesn't apply here because the ball was never touched inbounds. As Tim said above, I would have waited for a bit, but not until something happened. Even though there was no reason (legally) to blow the whistle, I would have been a little preventative and blown it dead and went to the arrow. In doing so, I would have given a friendly reminder to both teams that the next time this happens it will be a delay of game "T".

What if no one touches the ball for 10 minutes?

Even though we, as officials, are supposed to "let the players decide the game", there are times (especially at this level) when we must take over. This is one of those times.

OK, guys. Tear me up.

[Brian Watson]

No ripping for you Dave, I think this is just one of those infamous "rule on items not specifically covered in the book" situations.
I think the coach had a legit beef, I think the call was wrong. And I agree that if a minute or so went by I might have pulled the old inadvertent whistle trick. Actually I would have called a TO for B and then acted innocent, " well I thought I heard timeout, oh well my bad, inadvertent whistle"

Wouldn't it have been more humorous to just ask the PG if he planned on finishing the game or something just as dumb? It would have pushed him along and niether team would have been "punished".

[Bart Tyson]

I think there is two ways to go. Travesty of the game by both teams. 1)Call it a game and go home sense they don't want to play. Or 2) Officials rule on situation specifically not covered by the rules. Official does what he thinks best, which he did, 10 sec. count. It got them to play the game. Good Job.

[John B]

All things aside, why did the officials go to the possession arrow on a 10 second backcourt violation?

[Martin]

I have no problem with just waitng it out a bit and if worse came to worse, call the game. I don't know if I like blowing the whistle in that spot. If the kids don't waana play, then send them home. Easy for me to Monday morning quaterback this one.

[Mark Padgett]

quote:

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Originally posted by John B on 03-18-2000 10:47 PM
All things aside, why did the officials go to the possession arrow on a 10 second backcourt violation?

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Because the official thought that two wrongs make a right. He really didn't have a 10 second backcourt violation, but since he called it anyway and no one had team control (which is why he couldn't legally call it in the first place), he went to the arrow.

I don't think there is any perfect answer to the problem.

[Art N]

Am I missing something here, or you guys inventeing rules? lol
Seriously though, if the ref only got to 10 on the INCORRECT 10 second count, then what's the rush with this inadvertant stuff? Don't you think someone from team A would approach the ball if B continues to stand there? Whoever said they would call timeout for B would also be wrong because there was no PLAYER control, right?

[Todd VandenAkker]

I agree that you can't really "make up" a rule here (Inadvertent whistle? Thought I heard a time out called?), but standing there indefinitely doesn't really make sense either. Personally, since the ball is clearly at B's disposal with no defensive pressure, I would tell the kid to pick up the ball or it's gonna be a violation. In a sense, it IS allowing the game to become an "actionless contest" (there, somebody finally said it), and since it is B's ball it is up to that team to do something in this very unusual situation. Now that I've told him he'd better pick it up or lose the ball to a violation, it's up to HIM what happens next. Either way, the game moves on.

[bob jenkins]

I'm going to use 10-1-5 (it's not a complete list; latitude is given to have other acts fit here) and call a double team technical. Use the arrow.

If it happens again, use 5-5-3 and go home.

[jackgil]

Not a 10 second violation. This certainly is delaying the game even if the example is not in the case book. If B is able to pick up ball and doesn't, I'd blow whistle and report delay of game warning on team B. Give B the ball under team A's basket again. If the same thing happens again, technical on team B.

[Dave Birch]

The 10 sec call was wrong, I like the actionless contest technical on BOTH teams, no free throws and go with the arrow. What do you guys think of that?

[Bart Tyson]

I wouldn't have call a 10sec. violation. But, I don't think its fair to say its a wrong call. The rule book does say the official can make judgement on anything not covered in the rule book.