7th and 8th grade CYO playoff game. Team A up 8 with 1:45 left. Throw in after a timeout by B. B-1 inbounds the ball by rolling it on the floor towards B-2. The ball has little or no momentum and comes to a stop in B's backcourt. B-2 makes no attempt to pick up the ball and no one else from B is in the backcourt. B-1 runs down the floor leaving B-2 alone with this stopped ball in the backcourt. No one from A makes any attempt to get the ball and B-2 just stands there! I was observing two of our associations JV officials work the ball game as part of our rating committee along with several of my colleagues. The trail official began a 10 second count and when he reached ten, he called a held ball (since no team control had been established was his reasoning) and went to the possession arrow which favored A. Team B coach argues that the 10 second count can only begin when his team had control. The coach tells the official he was instructing B-2 on what he wanted done and since A wasn't pressuring, there was no need to pick up the ball. He argued that the clock couldn't start and neither could the count until the ball was touched inbounds. The calling official asked us after the game whether we felt he did the right thing and whether there was anything in the rules to cover that situation. He said he started his ten second count because he felt that B-2 could have easily picked up the ball. We all admitted we'd never seen anything like that before! The throw-in count ended when the ball was released but the throw-in doesn't end until the passed ball touches or is touched by an inbounds player other than the thrower. That didn't happen here. We were perplexed but agreed with how the situation was handled given the circumstances. What do you guys think? Is this in the rules anywhere (I couldn't find it)! Would you have agreed with the calling official that B-2 was "in control" (it does not meet the definition of control)? By the way, Team A won by 12.

I'm sure someone will come up with the "actionless contest" argument but I don't think it applies here. That rule (NF 10-1-5) is called when a team delays and the other team cannot do anything about it. In this case, team A could have come and got the ball at any time (assuming there wasn't some "no backcourt guarding" rule in effect in this game like there is in some rec leagues).

In any case, the 10 second count was flat out wrong. There was never team control. To establish team control at a time when there is none, such as during a throwin, you must have player control established. To establish player control, a player must be holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds. This did not happen here, thus no player control, thus no team control, thus no legal 10 second count.

This wouldn't have been a problem if the clock was running, since it eventually would run out. But coming out of a timeout, there was no clock going.

What would I have done? Now that I've had time to think about it, I would have blown my whistle, called it inadvertant and made team B inbound again. If they did it again, I would do it again. I think eventually, someone would touch the ball inbounds.

Another option would be to blow the inadvertant whistle, make team B inbound again and claim B1 stepped over the line while inbounding, then give the ball to team A.

While none of these "solutions" may seem fair or within the letter or spirit of the rules, you gotta admit they're at least creative. http://www.ereferee.com/ubb/smile.gif

I think the correct action is to stand there like the statue of liberty until something happens. By rule you can't start any count or clock until the ball is touched. There is no advantage to even doing this. I can understand if it were with the clock running down or waiting for the ball to get to a good spot to pick up the ball.

Here's my stab at this weird situation.

The 10 sec. count doesn't apply here because the ball was never touched inbounds. As Tim said above, I would have waited for a bit, but not until something happened. Even though there was no reason (legally) to blow the whistle, I would have been a little preventative and blown it dead and went to the arrow. In doing so, I would have given a friendly reminder to both teams that the next time this happens it will be a delay of game "T".

What if no one touches the ball for 10 minutes?

Even though we, as officials, are supposed to "let the players decide the game", there are times (especially at this level) when we must take over. This is one of those times.

OK, guys. Tear me up. http://www.ereferee.com/ubb/smile.gif

No ripping for you Dave, I think this is just one of those infamous "rule on items not specifically covered in the book" situations.
I think the coach had a legit beef, I think the call was wrong. And I agree that if a minute or so went by I might have pulled the old inadvertent whistle trick. Actually I would have called a TO for B and then acted innocent, " well I thought I heard timeout, oh well my bad, inadvertent whistle"

Wouldn't it have been more humorous to just ask the PG if he planned on finishing the game or something just as dumb? It would have pushed him along and niether team would have been "punished".

I think there is two ways to go. Travesty of the game by both teams. 1)Call it a game and go home sense they don't want to play. Or 2) Officials rule on situation specifically not covered by the rules. Official does what he thinks best, which he did, 10 sec. count. It got them to play the game. Good Job.

All things aside, why did the officials go to the possession arrow on a 10 second backcourt violation?

I have no problem with just waitng it out a bit and if worse came to worse, call the game. I don't know if I like blowing the whistle in that spot. If the kids don't waana play, then send them home. Easy for me to Monday morning quaterback this one.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John B on 03-18-2000 10:47 PM
All things aside, why did the officials go to the possession arrow on a 10 second backcourt violation?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Because the official thought that two wrongs make a right. He really didn't have a 10 second backcourt violation, but since he called it anyway and no one had team control (which is why he couldn't legally call it in the first place), he went to the arrow.

I don't think there is any perfect answer to the problem.

Am I missing something here, or you guys inventeing rules? lol
Seriously though, if the ref only got to 10 on the INCORRECT 10 second count, then what's the rush with this inadvertant stuff? Don't you think someone from team A would approach the ball if B continues to stand there? Whoever said they would call timeout for B would also be wrong because there was no PLAYER control, right?

I agree that you can't really "make up" a rule here (Inadvertent whistle? Thought I heard a time out called?), but standing there indefinitely doesn't really make sense either. Personally, since the ball is clearly at B's disposal with no defensive pressure, I would tell the kid to pick up the ball or it's gonna be a violation. In a sense, it IS allowing the game to become an "actionless contest" (there, somebody finally said it), and since it is B's ball it is up to that team to do something in this very unusual situation. Now that I've told him he'd better pick it up or lose the ball to a violation, it's up to HIM what happens next. Either way, the game moves on.

I'm going to use 10-1-5 (it's not a complete list; latitude is given to have other acts fit here) and call a double team technical. Use the arrow.

If it happens again, use 5-5-3 and go home.

Not a 10 second violation. This certainly is delaying the game even if the example is not in the case book. If B is able to pick up ball and doesn't, I'd blow whistle and report delay of game warning on team B. Give B the ball under team A's basket again. If the same thing happens again, technical on team B.

The 10 sec call was wrong, I like the actionless contest technical on BOTH teams, no free throws and go with the arrow. What do you guys think of that?

I wouldn't have call a 10sec. violation. But, I don't think its fair to say its a wrong call. The rule book does say the official can make judgement on anything not covered in the rule book.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jackgil on 03-20-2000 09:31 AM
Not a 10 second violation. This certainly is delaying the game even if the example is not in the case book. If B is able to pick up ball and doesn't, I'd blow whistle and report delay of game warning on team B. Give B the ball under team A's basket again. If the same thing happens again, technical on team B. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like this solution. I must admit, having seen the play, I felt for the guys on the floor. To address a couple of things, the official went to the arrow because there was no team control. He started the 10 second count because, even though it's not control by rule or definition, he felt that the Team B player could have easily picked up the ball at any time. That being said, we took this to our interpreter and he agreed that after a "reasonable" waiting period (depends on individual tolerance levels) and possibly warning the kid or Team B coach to pick up the ball and play or face a delay warning, the whistle should have been blown and an official delay warning should have been given to B. Team A is under no obligation to force the action. If it happens again, according to our interpreter, "T" on Team B with a stern warning that the next time would be the last as Team B would forfeit due to allowing the game to become an actionless contest. This, of course, assumes that Team A plays normally after being awarded the "T" free throws and subsequent throw-in. Our interpreter didn't fell you could penalize Team A with a "T" because the ball was clearly at the disposal of Team B and although he couldn't understand why Team A wouldn't come after the ball, they were under no obligation to do so. Agree/Disagree?

Agree and dissagree.
I agree that that a warning should be issued before (should have stated that on my first post) but if (luck have it) they were able to let the same situation happen again if think both teams are at equal fault for not initiating action. As soon as the ball enters the court it is in play for anybody to make a play on, why does your interperator feel that A has no obligation to play the ball? I still stick with my 1st post and call a T on both teams and go with the arrow.

Walt, did you ever get an explanation from team A coach/players as to why they didnt steal (like stealing candy from a baby!) the ball?
Were the players baffled by team B's actions? Were they looking for the refs to call delay of game on A?

I mean delay of game on B.

I agree with bob jenkins. Stop play.Tell both coaches you will have B inbound ball again.
If no one attempts to play, it will be a
double tech,delay of game,go to arrow.
Next it will be forfeit.

Team A should not be penalized with a double tech or the actionless contest...I have seen games where team B would roll in the indbounds, refuse to pick it up (inviting team A to steal), and as Team A sprints for the steal, B picks up the ball and and ends up with a 5 on 4 advantage. Penalize team B with a delay warning followed by a tech.

Neal - you hit it right on the head - thank you. Giving a T to team A makes no sense to me. They are NOT required to go for the steal. B IS REQUIRED to at leaset PICK the BALL UP! It sounded like to me that team B wasnt playing fair and team A coach was very familiar with team B's tactics.

Jackgil,
I am playing the devils advocate here, but where does it say that team B HAS to pick up the ball? They are only required by rule to indound the ball within 5 sec, which they did. This is a very strange situation but it's interesting hearing all your viewpoints.

DB

Dave -

I believe it is reasonable to classify B's action as delay of game which is a violation and subject to penalties. If B just stands there and waits for A to respond we could be here forever depending on how stubborn B coach is. One of the posts talked about ulterior motives by B --- turning it into a 5 on 4 break picking up ball when A goes for ball. You can't penalize team A .. they are just not falling into their hands.

First of all was the whistle blown to resume play after a TO loud enough for the whole gym to hear? If not then that could explain the actionless moment. If so then one must wonder what both coaches intent were. Anyway, I would blow an inadvertant whistle and speak with both coaches, find out the intent and readminister throw in and issue a warning to mainly the team that is throwing it in. Was the game called poorly prior to that point?

Would'nt the correct call be the 5 second inbounding violation on team B? The 5 second count ends when the ball touches a player on either team.

KJ -

You might want to check rule book on that. It ends on the RELEASE of the ball. 10 second count ends when front court status is attained. Are you mixing the 2 up?