Running clock & thoughts from officials
 

I just found out from reading the 2010-2011 WIAA Handbook, that a running clock is going to be used if during the 2nd half the point differential is 45 points or more.

Has anyone on here ever officiated in a game with this rule? What's your thought of the running clock?

Been there, done that. In a game like this, as a rule, everybody involved is content to see it get over that much quicker.

How easy is the running clock to institute?

For those that have been in a game with it, how often do you have to remind coaches &/or table of the running clock?

I'm asking to be prepared in case I am asked to institute it.

A running clock should be easy to institute. The timer now has less to do, which should make them happy. LOL The only issues that arise are:

(a) switching from running to non-running time, and vice-versa
(b) the timer forgetting what "mode" the contest is "in" and therefore stopping, not stopping, or not starting the clock when it should be

If (a), then you could use a series of invented signals to the timer as a method to ensure that you and s/he are on the same page. Express it in exactly that manner: that the signal (example coming) is just so that you're aware of what the timer will do. The fact that your signal might remind him of the status of the clock is just an added unannounced feature.

If (b), the best method to fix the clock's status is to just use your voice. And if you need to do this, does it really matter that a second or two ticked off, or didn't tick off, in a 45-point blowout?


Signals to use:

I work some game where the scoring must drop back to half if the point spread (anytime during the game) becomes either 15 or 20 points. This change has no effect on the timing rules, but it does create a new violation with it's own penalty. The other official(s) and I need to be aware of when this situation arises and when it vanishes.

The signal that I invented is this:

When a team must first drop back to half, my P(s) and I signal two palms stretched apart, much like the "not closely guarded" signal. This signal is meant to show that separation must exist, representing the losing team's defensive end line and the division line.

When a pressing situation is back on, the signal is pressing the palms together, much like football's "safety touch" signal, but only at chest height instead of above the head.

Signals you could use:

Similarly, you could use a small football-style winding the clock signal to signify running time; using the finger only, and slightly in front of your chest. When the losing team scores again to revert their deficit to under 45 points, use a signal such as palm out, chest high, and only a few inches in front of your body.

It's not rocket science...don't stop the clock over a certain point threshold. If the timer was able to stop it before, then they'll be able to let it run.

In leagues that I've worked with that use the running clock, there might only need to be one reminder to the table. Most of the time it isn't an issue cause if we're close to the threshold, I'll go over to the table and remind them when the clock needs to running and when it needs to stop if we dip under the required threshold. The coach of the losing team isn't going to be worried about the clock running and either is the winning coach.

Me Likey Running Clocks
 

Most involved obviously don't mind as it gets the game over quickly....and it's not much of a game anyhow.

As has been stated, clock ops have less to do. My instructions - "Leave the clock run and only stop it for TOs." How hard is that? In one Rec League we even leave it run during FT shots. :cool:

If you bring the coaches together and remind them of the rules I find it helps clarify any potential issues and confusion.

To clarify, here's what the 2010-2011 WIAA Handboook says concerning the Running Clock:

52.7.0 NFHS Basketball Rule 5-5-3, utilizing a 40-point differential, will apply for all regular season & postseason contests. Beginning in the second half, if the point differential is 40 points or more,
the game clock shall run continuously for the remainder of the game except for an official’s timeout, a charged time-out, time between quarters, or the administration of free throws.

Juggling, I'm asking the questions pertaining to Table Operations as I have been Timer/Scoreboard & Shot Clock.

How I am reading/understanding the rule/regulation, the clock shall remain running even if the point differential falls below 40. As the season draws nearer, hopefully I'll get some further clarification on what to do if the point differential is below 40.

Go to whatever pre-season rules meeting the officials have to go to.

Ask the officials at the first game (they will probably bring it up anyway).

If there's a scrimmage at your school, ask the officials then.

Check the WIAA web-site for more information.

Find out when to stop (when the foul is called? -- what if you don't know whether FTs are involved? When you know? when the ball is at the disposal fo the shooter?) and start on FTs, and after a TO. (Those are two plays that are debated somewhat on these forums).

Table operations for a running clock game? It is simple. Don't stop the clock.

Problem solved. Next thread.

You shouldn't need any clarification. The bold part is pretty clear, don't you think?

What ^ he said.

When you explain to the timer about the 45 point rule, make sure you use the term "point differential" and not "point spread". :D

Here, it's adopted at the league level in high school, and runs for everything but timeouts and quarter breaks.
It doesn't make sense to me to stop for free throws if you've decided to implement a mercy rule.

I'll Be Here All Week Folks ...
 

Why not? That's the way Tim Donaghy always explained it.

We have a running clock rule for tournaments only before February 1. It does not apply to any regular season games or normal state tournament games. The rule is a 30 point deficit in the 4th quarter. And if the score comes back to 29 points the clock still runs.

This is the only place I feel it is OK to have such a rule as basketball is a game with a clock that for the most part constantly runs. And the rule only applies if the tournament director allows for the rules to be in place. If they refuse then normal rules apply. I can see why this is the case as tournaments run a tighter schedule and it is not hard to get off schedule based on a long game.

Peace

Constable, I am asking because of not seeing it actually implemented to have an understanding.

I was mentioning to Juggling about me being Table crew as the post s/he made was for a floor official.

So what if in the middle of the game the point spread changes to 10?

O wait that only happens in Vegas though.

DOn't know why you're having problems understanding it.

Stop it during timeouts and FTs, end of story.

And even if you fail to do this properly, what are the consequences? The game is over, or the running clock wouldn't be in effect in the first place.

Like I stated before, I am asking so that I can have a better understanding. I'm trying to get information from the local association as well when the season gets closer I will be asking the School AD about it.

Yes, you've asked, it's been answered and you continued to ask. Why persist? What is it that you still don't understand?

I do plenty of running clock games for kids rec including HS rec, in which they play running halves. We stop the clock only when there's a timeout. The clock runs during free throws. Usually, we go to stop clock in the last two minutes if the point spread, er, I mean differential is less than 10. However, in 3rd and 4th grade games, it runs the entire game regardless of the score.

When you work with a kids rec league and they have only so much gym rental time to fit in games, running clock is the best way to go.

Exactly. Plus, every state / league is slighlty different, so no one here (unless they are from WA *and* have insight beyond what is apparently posted) will be able to give any specific guidance.

In Washington, the running clock will only be used in the second half, will go into effect when the score differential is 40 or more points, and once started will not be changed back. The only time the clock stops is on time-outs, between third and fourth quarter, during free throws, or if there is an injury.

It really is that simple.

Or is it? When does it stop "during free throws"? When you hand the shooter the ball? When you report to the table? When the whistle is blown?

If it is the latter, the clock operator must know if there will be FTs or not in order to know whether the clock will stop or not. At a minimum, they must wait until the official indicates who the foul is on and if there will be FTs.

Sure, it is not really that big of a deal, but it isn't "that simple".

Why stop it during free throws? Kind of defeats the purpose of the turbo clock. Ours runs if there is a 30 point lead in the 4th quarter and goes back to the regular clock if the lead goes under 30. It only stops for timeouts or injuries.

Thanks for the clarifications, I'm trying to find contact information for the local board/association &, when I do, asking if I can attend a meeting before the season starts. This way I have a pool of experts I can ask in person beforehand, instead of at the last second in the middle of a game.

What would happen then if those free throws are being taken with less than 30 seconds left & the point differential is 1-2 points?

There's all sorts of questions that can be asked about the use of a running clock. Depending on the rules being used, that is.

Different State Associations, rec organizations, etc. have different rules/regulations so what may be good for the goose, isn't for the gander.

This is why I think these rules are unnecessary in basketball. The clock runs most of the time anyway. I also doubt that if someone has a 30 point lead in a basketball game, they are going to come back that quickly with a running clock. Maybe in a stop clock game, but not likely with such a wide lead. And if that is possible the leading team is stupid as heck to let it happen.

Peace

Because their local rule sez so.......:)

It don't have to make sense. It just is.

They make 'em; we follow 'em...shrug.

Oh, they're just going to LOVE you!

No, it really is that simple. Even for those people who try to overanalyze everything.

At the point the official reports a foul to the table and indicates free throws will be attempted, the clock stops.

As to why they added that rule - I have no idea. As the Light Brigade once learned, "Ours is not to wonder why..."

You're gonna need an asbestos overcoat by the time you're done with that meeting!!

Reminds me of the scorer who tries to tell me that I can't whistle in a sub until he's squatting on the X and has formally reported to him and the horn's blown. My first thought is, "Yeah, and I can replace you" as I continue to do exactly what I always do.

Shocked I tell ya, shocked I am....
 

Well, you and "the Eagle" are just not going to be able to coexist! ;)

Heh. To be honest, I've only removed one scorer in 23 years.

About as much as we've come to......

Maybe you need to tell us what exactly it is that you need a better understanding of. Not stopping the clock is pretty dang easy. Stop it only when you are supposed to (sound like that means time outs and free throws in your area... just time outs here). What is there to understand. Trust me, if you ask your school AD how to not stop the clock, you're going to be laughed at... maybe not to your face, but it WILL happen.

That's funny ... I have a total of 4 ejections in ALL of my football games over the years... and one of them was a scorekeeper / clock operator.

And that addition makes it simple. Without that clarification, there were too many options.

Personally, I'd prefer to see it run through the FTs....FTs sometimes make up the largest component of stop-clock time. Simple violations (OOB, traveling, etc.) just don't take that much time.

And yes, I thoroughly analyze everything. That is why I rarely mess up a rule on the court. On more than a few occasions, I have had partners who think they are too good to study the rules think I've missed something and make an AT&T call in front of me....only to be the wrong call (not judgement, but simply the wrong call). There is little I dislike more than a hot-shot referee that makes up their own rules because they don't know the real ones.

Interesting.

For the record, the analyze comment was not directed at you.

Thanks...but that shoe does fit some times. :D

LMAO I just make sure they're recorded in the official book. I actually appreciate it when I don't have to hit the horn to notify of subs. Less of a headache then.

As I stated in an earlier post, differnet state associations have different rules regarding the same thing.

Concerning the school AD, at times, I question his capabilities especially when it comes to Game Day Operations. However with him being the AD, he is supposed to be on top of all new rules/regulations. What I'd be asking him is just his thoughts of the rule & if all personnel involved are going to be notified.

1) If different states have their own local timing rules, it's no concern of yours. If you're talking about your own state, I doubt very much the WIAA will let any local associations play with their state rules. And....a 30-second trip to Google to look up the WIAA website finds that all you freaking have to do is send an e-mail to Cindy Adsit, the WIAA Assistant Executive Director for basketball and she'll answer any question about timing you might have. Her e-mail is:
[email protected]
Please don't tell her that it was me who gave you her e-mail addy. I might have to go in the Witness Protection Program if she ever finds out who sicced you on her.

2) I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell ya!

Everytime A Horn Blows An Angel Gets A Headache ...
 

And we appreciate it as well. I hate it when I'm waving in substitutes and the timer insists on hitting the horn. Like the horn is necessary to make the substitutes legal or something like that?

I've sent e-mails to Cindy before, so I do know how to get ahold of her.

I know the WIAA Website, as that's how I found out about the Running Clock being added for this year, by looking it up on the PDF of the 2010-2011 WIAA Handbook.

How are you shocked?

He's not shocked.
________
Marijuana Bubbler

I seriously doubt if one of his responsibilities is to know all the playing rules for all the sports.

Ok, let me rephrase then, the AD is supposed to know all rules/regualtions for all sports to ensure those that are doing scoreboard/timing operations are fully aware of their duties.

Getting rather ambitious now, aren't we. You're not satisfied with maneuvering for the HEAD Scorekeeper's job and now you're gunning for the AD's position??
Post your principal's contact info so we can apprise him of our endorsement.
Heck, I'll bet you can probably handle both positions and do crowd control on the side. What a bargain, 3 fer 1. Great idea in these budget conscious times!!
Tidy up your CV and go for it

I am an AD. I have also been a basketball official for 15 years and STILL occasionally recheck, study rules, and ask questions in the sport I am allegedly an expert in.

My experience as a basketball official has taught me that even though I probably have more knowledge of the rules in other sports than the average fan, the last thing I would do is pretend that I know every detail of every rule for the other 11 sports that I administer.

I run an athletic department- not a rules clinic. I trust that the contest officials will be the experts on matters of rules, and if I have a question, they will be able to answer it or send me to a person who knows the answer.

Thanks for the ideas, I'll just go for the Superintendent's job while I'm at it. NOT

When I was talking about game-day operations, I was meaning other aspects besides the sport itself.

I could never the place of either the AD or Principal, & I would never try to do so.

The person that's been doing the Varsity games has been doing better. She appreciates my help & suggestions as during last year's games I did assist with shot clock operations during Varsity Games when I could. So with time she is getting better.

Unless there are other table crews that do so, I am the only one, that I know of, that has a copy of the "Duties & Regulations for Timers & Scorers of Basketball Games", as well as a copy of the Shot Clock Rules/Regulations with me while at the table. I wish more would have these with them in case questions did arise. As during the past couple of years these have come in handy.

I was not meaning knowing every single rule/regulation. I was meaning those that pertain to the operations of the game (timer, scorer, materials needed, etc.) & any changes made in those rules/regulations that could affect that which I mentioned before.

Why should the AD know those things? The table crew has been hired to know those things. The AD's only duty is to make sure the materials needed are provided....clocks, scorebooks, etc.

In many areas, the AD hires the referees. It doesn't mean they should know how to referee.

For just in case the AD might have to cover for someone being ill. Also the AD should know how to operate the scoreboard without any problems.

Hopefully this last statement has changed since last year, as that's what happened.

The poor AD's head would explode if they had to know all the rules officials have to know. I can see an AD being an official for 1 or 2 sports their school participates in, just not every single sport.

pie-eyed over the table talk
 

Thanks much to everyone.

There is nothing better when getting ready for a season than good table talk, and this is the best table talk I've seen outside of Worcester, Mass.

Sorry but gotta ask, what's the worst table talk you've ever heard?

1st running clock of the season
 

During Boys' C Squad tonight had running clock for the 1st time this season, where I was timer.

When the running clock got instituted the score was H 53-V 13.

Is this clear enough for you
 

Given that I officiate in the State of Washington...

In the second half once we reach a point differential of 40 points or greater the clock will only stop for a time out, free throw administration, an officials time out or time between quarters. This doesn't change for the remainder of the game even if the point differential drops to below 40.

That is it, nothing more nothing less. My understanding of clock operations is limited as I am only an official, but I think once you get it running if you leave it alone it will contiune to run. But then again maybe I'm mistaken, maybe you need to feed it or whip it to keep it running.

Right after we started the running clock V got 2 FTs & made both. Near the end of the game one of the V Spectators was complaining about the clock not stopping whatsoever, the Shot Clock operator started to say something to them, but I said to ignore them especially since we had very little time left.

It wasn't till the game was done that he turned around and explained that there's the running clock now. I did scold him though for even saying that, mentioning that the spectators need to learn the rules themselves or stop belly aching.

The 2 FTs by V was the only time the clock stopped.

BTW Scuba_ref, when during FTs when have you told the timer to stop the clock?

How I did it tonight was that I waited until the official signaled there would be 2 FTs.

The funny thing was we had the running clock happening in the Girls' Varsity game at the same time.

Had the 2nd game of the year where the running clock was instituted, where I was Table Ops. This time Boys' V.

Only happened with less than 2 minutes left in the game.

Heard several fans, both on home side & visitor side, complain about the clock still running when ball went OOB.

Question concerning running clock
 

For anyone/everyone that's done running clock when should the clock stop for FTs?

We were told tonight for the Boys' V, to stop the clock as soon as official was in FRA reporting the foul & number of FTs.

The other night when I had the running clock during the Boys' C-Squad game, I stopped the clock as soon as I saw the calling official signal FTs before reporting the foul.

Also how often do you hear fans yelling about the clock still running?

I'm trying JR, but it ain't easy.

Ommmmmmmmmmmmmm :D:D

That'll be up to your state association as to when the clock should be stopped. If you were told to stop the clock as soon as the foul and number of free throws were indicated, then do so.

As to the fans yelling about the clock, who cares? If what you say is true and this is the first year adopting the running clock, then expect to hear the cat calls until everyone realizes the rule change.

From my understanding from attending the local Officials' Association meetings, there hasn't been a clarification of when to stop the clock for FTs.

Fans yell about the craziest things don't they?

You'll be rewarded in heaven, my son.

If your head don't explode first......:D

that might be how he gets there.

Thought this thread might be dead. In FL, we have the running clock once a team is ahead by 35 points in the 2nd half. It only stops for time outs or the end of the 3rd period. There have been instances when a kid is fouled at one end of the court and by the time you are set up at the other end of the court, the horn sounds to end the game. And a puzzled kid hoping to score a point or two, usually for the team that is behind, is left at the free throw line with a blank stare, wondering when he will get to shoot. (Never is the correct answer).

chseagle,

I'm coming to your locale Wednesday night for the BV game...if we have a blowout, you do know it is going to be all your fault.;)

Concerning the 40 point mercy rule:

Keep the clock running untill the official reports the foul and indicates there will be foul shots...then you can turn off the clock and wait for the official to signal a start of the clock with a "chop".

Stop clock for TO's and between quarters.

There you go...that part of our pre-game is over...now we can talk about what you are going to get Mrs. Scorekeeper for Christmas.;)

That's what we were told last night during the Boys' V game where I was shot clock.

I remember on the meeting on the 13th, there was discussing of exactly when the clock should stop for FTs & nothing concrete had been concluded yet.

At least that's been finalized.

unfortunately I don't have the full stats for the team we're going against Wednesday night, the only thing I do know it it'll be 1A vs. 2B. Also that we won't have C-Squads.

Unless there's an illness or the V Timer just doesn't show up, I'll be either shot clock or crowd control during Boys' V Wednesday night.

As for Christmas Present, with what money? :eek: Being together on Christmas should be present enough for any couple.