Camron - as I read back through the thread, it seems as though in the beginning we actually agreed the initial post was the start of a dribble. I'm not sure where we got off track, other than perhaps you enjoy disagreeing with me. Did I knock over your sandcastle once in a former life? :)

Ok, we agree the action is a dribble. We just now disagree as to whether the "start of a dribble" happens when the ball leaves the hand, or only after it hits the floor the first time. My contention, and JR's contention (post #33), is that the dribble starts when it leaves the hand, and any action thereafter must fall within the guidelines of the dribble rule. (Such as touching it twice before it hits the floor.) The phrase "to the floor" indicates a direction, not a destination.

Pretty simple question - we all know the pivot foot cannot be lifted before the dribble is started, as per 4-15-3. If, as you believe, the dribble doesn't start until after the ball has hit the floor, then how come there is no travel violation if the pivot foot is lifted in between the ball leaving the hand and hitting the floor?

4-44-3c: The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.

Thanks, jar.

But I still won't agree with your stance on the blarge. ;) :p :D

Nah, half the fun is just discecting the rule. Doesn't matter who is takeing up the other point. At least I don't start call you an idiot for disagreeing with me. :)
This is where I don't necessarily agree. Note the pass rule...."to another player". Does that indicate direction or desitination? It is a destination...the case plays on that are quite clear.

I assert that it is not a dribble at all if it doesn't touch the floor. It always starts on the release, but you can't always be sure what it is until later.

EDIT: In fact, the dribble can be started by throwing the ball in absolutely ANY direction or distance, letting it bounce, the touching the ball again.....so how can "to the floor" be a direction?

I never claimed the dribble doesn't start until it hits the floor. It starts on the release, but you may not be able to determine if it was a dribble or not until other events happen.

For example, when a player pushes/throws the ball to the floor, is it a bounce pass or a dribble? It would, if it bounces to another player, end up being a pass. If it bounces back to the original ball hander, it would be a dribble.

When it left the hand it was either a pass or a dribble, but you can't tell which until it the next action occurs.

But, what if I am? :eek: :D

Not really; don't get too hung up on only final destinations. For example, A1 drives the lane, gathers the dribble, jumps in the air, and attempts a pass to a teammate in the corner. However the pass is too high, and the ball sails OOB on the sideline. So, where does the violation occur? If we take the case play literally, since A1's throw did not end up at another player, it is actually a dribble, thus A1 lifted the pivot foot before starting a dribble, or started a second dribble, and the throw-in should be along the endline. But we know the throw-in will be on the sideline where it went OOB. Why? Because the same player didn't recover it. A1 threw the ball to(wards) another player, but because A1 wasn't the first to retrieve it, it is still considered a pass, even though no other player actually touched it. In other words, "to another player" means the opposite of "the same player retrieving it".

Sometimes, but "later" can occur fairly quickly. In the example of the same player touching it twice before it hits the ground, after moving the feet, means it's a violation of 4-15-2. In other words, the same player touched the ball again before it hit the ground. It's not a violation if we know another player touched it before it hit the ground, which would make it a pass, or the same player touched it, which would make it an illegal dribble. We did have to wait to be able to tell; sometimes it's a fraction of a second, other times it may be a couple of seconds.

It brings in another non-basketball rule: gravity. Throw a ball in any direction, and it will hit the floor if it doesn't hit anything else first, right? Direction doesn't necessarily mean a straight line. ;)