illegal dribble?
 

A fellow official called me regarding this play which was disputed among officials. A1 attempts to dribble behind his back and the ball hits A2 and then rolls before A1 picks it up and begins a new dribble. Is this an illegal (double) dribble? My response is yes based on the determination that A1's action was neither a pass or fumble. I didn't locate a relevant case.

Here's rule 9-5.

A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:

Art 1... A try for field goal.
Art 2... A touch by an opponent.
Art 3... A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by another player.

4-31: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats, or rolls the ball to another player.

This was a pass.

I agree with JAR.

I disagree with JAR. The player was dribbling behind his back and the ball bounced off a teammate.

That doesn't constitute a pass because it was not intentional. IMO throwing, bouncing, or rolling the ball TO another player (as opposed to off his leg) must be intentional.

It does, however, constitute a fumble. No illegal dribble.

I was going to go with fumble also. Regardless, pass or fumble, the play is not illegal.

fumble-dribble-fumble=ok
dribble-fumble-dribble=not ok

to me, this seems like the latter of the two.

While it might have been the latter, the ball was touched by another plyaer during the fumble. So, the play is legal.

Just one example of how applying a catchy little bromide can get you in trouble if you don't understand the full rule behind it.

I don't see how it could be a fumble.

"the ball........drops or slips from a players grasp."

In the OP, the player never attempted to grasp the ball.

The definition of a pass does not mention intent.

I agree with Lord Byron, sounds like a fumble to me. Since it sounds like the fumble was backward, anybody on Team A can advance it...whoops sorry, mixed up my sports. Football season is coming afterall.

Sounds legal to me.

Sounds like an interrupted dribble to me, or a pass. Frankly, I'd call it a pass as there's nothing in the rule which requires it to be intentional.

good point. my mistake....:eek:

Disagree. It's impossible to throw, bat, or roll the ball TO another player by accident.

It is possible for the ball to move from one player TOWARD another player by accident, but that's not a pass, IMO.

As for fumble, here's the entire definition: "A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp."

I read the operative concept as loss of player control. As we know, a dribbler has control of the ball (4-12-1) and therefore can lose it, for example by fumbling. I'm going to read "grasp" loosely as a gloss on 'player control'.

A fumble is the accidental loss of player control; a pass or a try is the intentional loss of player control.

If they would simply add "interrupted dribble" to this definition, it wouldn't matter.

I don't see anything inherently intentional in a pass. A pass is defined by the result, not the intent. Consider:
A1 is holding the ball and has already used his dribble.
A1 attempts to throw the ball to A2.
A2 does not see the throw and turns to cut around his defender.
A1, seeing this, retrieves the ball after it has bounced a few times.

What was intended as a pass has now become an illegal dribble.

Personally, I find the "pass" definition easier to justify with the rules. The definition of fumble requires a player to have a "grasp" of the ball. While a dribbler is certainly in "control," as defined, he is certainly not "grasping" the ball.

In the OP, what if A2 grabbed the ball, then dropped it for A1?
What if A2 had purposefully batted it back to A1?
Play, A1 dribbling, loses control. A2 bats the ball back to A1 who grabs it with two hands and then proceeds to dribble. Call?

As I envision this, A2 passed the ball back. Legal.

I disagree with your view that a pass is defined by the outcome rather than the intent. Indeed, I think it's exactly the reverse. I doubt that you can specify the outcome in a way that rules out rebounds and recoveries of loose balls from being passes.

As for your proposed counterexample, where A1 passes the ball to A2, who runs away because he didn't see the pass: that's still a pass, even though it's incomplete (to apply a football concept). We don't have the concept of an incomplete pass in basketball because (a) in the vast majority of cases passes are completed, and (b) when they aren't it's just a loose ball (not a dead ball).

And, merely passing the ball does not satisfy the requirements for starting a new dribble.

Based on what rule?
Why would I need to? I'm assuming you're talking about a play where A2 tips a rebound to A3.

No new dribble. A1 passed the ball to A2, and upon seeing A2 depart the reception area, runs over and grabs the ball. If the throw is a pass, then he hasn't dribbled again and this would be legal. However, the throw is a dribble and thus even the recovery is illegal for A1.

These plays are easy...if you don't know, let it go.

Will be less trouble trying to explain to a coach -- as you can see it's been hard to explain right here in this forum

Unless it's an obvious violation that everyone sees/knows, it's better to pass. I'd rather pass and be wrong (and if i missed it i missed it) than to call a violation that doesnt exist.

Right. The crucial part of the definition of pass is "to another player." If it doesn't contact another player, it isn't a pass.

Then what is it? Please assign a term to this action.

Your interpretation forces you to fudge on your definition and ignore a clear word/concept. That's because it is incorrect. You can't deem this play illegal, yet you know that a fumble just doesn't fit here.

Consider the illegal dribble rule in a very literal sense for a moment....

1. A1 dribbles.
2. A1 ends the dribble.
3. A1, for some unknown reason, deliberately drops/sets the ball on the floor at his/her feet.
4. A2 eventually comes a long and picks up the ball.
5. A2 hands it back to A1.

Can A1 dribble again?

Is the action in 3 a fumble? No. It didn't accidentally slip from A1's grasp.

Is the action in 3 & 4 a pass? By some interpretations here, No. Hmmm. Does that make sense.

If it is not a pass, A1 can not dribble again since there was no try, no bat by an opponent, and no pass.

What if this sequence of 3 & 4 continued from A2 to A3, then A3 to A4, then A4 to A5, then back from A5 to A1. If it is not a pass, then A1 stiil can't dribble again.

Furthermore, what if the sequence even continued though all of team B. Still not a "bat" by an opponent, not a try. So, is it a pass? If not, A1 still can't dribble again.

So, do we still think this is not a pass? Of course not. I think we'd all agree that the actions in the sequence above would allow A1 to dribble again. Therefore, the actions in 3 & 4 must be a pass.

I claim that, if the ball so much as touches another player when it is not in player control, it is a pass.

Also note that the actions described in the OP are neither a fumble nor a muff.

A fumble is accidentally losing grip on a ball that was being held...not a ball being dribbled or passed.

A muff occurs when a player unsuccessfully attempts to catch a ball that was either being dribbled or passed to them.

That's a TWP that would never happen. If it did happen, I'd rule that A1 left the ball for A2, which constitutes a pass because of its intent. If B2 had come along instead of A2, A1 would not have allowed B2 to pick it up; therefore, he intends to pass it to a teammate. :D

Let's change it. A1 dribbles behind his back as A2 cuts behind him. A2 accidentally kicks the ball to A3, who throws it back to A1. Can he dribble?

Well, how did his dribble end?

A3 clearly passed the ball back, but I guess your point is that that's not the issue. I think it's relevant that another player had control, and could have dribbled himself before passing.

If you're saying that the rule could be clearer I agree. I'm not sure what else follows from this case.

I wish they'd add "interrupted dribble" to the rule. You say it's significant that a teammate had control, but that's not in the rule.

Another play: A1 with the ball, having used his dribble, attempts to hand it off to A2 as he runs by. A2 is not able to grab the ball, but knocks it away. A1 is the first to retrieve it (assume the ball bounced prior to A1's retrieval). Illegal dribble?

OK, now I see where you're headed. You don't like the illegal dribble rule because there are some ways for a dribble to end that should allow the dribbler a new dribble. As written, the rule seems to disallow a new dribble.

I thought you were on about my claim that a pass is intentional. I'm prepared to agree with you about the illegal dribble rule.