Summer Ball - all this fun and I get paid too?
 

Three games today. Boys JV.

Heard these old chestnuts from the coaches:

1. "Call it both ways"

2. "Are you going to blow the whistle on the other end?"

3. "Three seconds" (repeated about 60 times)

4. "That call was garbage as were all the others you've made" (Tweet!) after I tried to answer "why wasn't a foul called?" - my answer "incidental contact."

5. "And One" - (repeated about 30 times)

6. "You two are the worst two officials I've ever seen." Partner T'd the coach.

Were they counting along with you on all of the "obviously missed" three second violations?

Summer ball:
1. Coach gets one or two of these that I hear. After that, it stops.
2. See #1.
3. See #1.
4. T, regardless of previous warnings.
5. See #1.
6. Good T.

Had a pair of games last night where, in the JV game, there was a player on one team setting what could be described as a very ugly screen. I saw it at least a half a dozen times and perhaps closer to dozen. It was the same every time.

If I happened to be close to the table, I could hear the assistant coach state in a rather soft voice "illegal screen". Way too soft to be a problem and they're a good coaching staff that never causes trouble anyway.

The screen went like this...

1. A1 dribbling out top.
2. A4 would run up and set a screen on the left side of B1 who was more or less stationary (such that it would have probably been a foul if A1 had brought his defender into him at that moment)
3. All about the same time
   1. The dribbler would then start a drive
   2. B1 would step back to go around the screen
   3. A1 would cut toward the right side of B1 :confused: (the side where B1 would not be affected by the screen at all)
   4. The screener would roll to the left away from the play:confused::confused::confused: opening up B1 to freely move any direction
4. B1 would continue to guard A1 as he wished without ever contacting A4.

I couldn't figure out exactly what they were trying to accomplish because the screen was entirely useless.

At a timeout, I went by the assistant and told him that I see them too....a lot of them and they were indeeded moving as he observed but there was absolutely no contact the way the players were moving and without contact there was nothing I could call. I told him that if there was contact on such a screen that bumped his defender off the dribbler, I'd be happy to make the call.

About 2 minutes later, bang...we had the same play except, after a dozen or so times, the dribber eventually went left. The defender was led into the screener as the screener was still coming in....obvious bump as the defender tried to stay with his man. Tweet....smile at he bench....and that one had the contact necessary for a foul.

Please clarify this.
From this description, it seems that B1 is a stationary defender requiring no time or distance for a screen from the side, NOT from the back.
If the screener comes to a stop prior to the contact, I don't understand why you state that this would be a foul according to the rules.

+1

It amazes me that some people think they can give any official an order.

As it was, B1 was stationary and no time/distance was required but the statement had an "if". If A1 had, instead, moved to the left it would have probably caused B1 to move left. A4 was not yet stationary (was moving toward B1), B1 would have run into him, and the screen would have been illegal.

I see. A classic case of failing to wait for the screener to reach his position.


Note: Visit from the Grammar Police. I just couldn't fend them off. ;)

How I love when they say And 1, I had that twice last night. I told the kid next time I hear him say it, it will be an And 1...count the basket and we will have a technical on him. It got really quiet!

Why?

attempting to influence an official's decision? I don't put up with "and one" from players either.

Really? That's a stretch. Is it really 'T' worthy?

What else do you think they're doing? They're trying to get you to call the foul. It's the same as players making the traveling signal. I'll ignore it a few times, depending whether they're looking at me when they do it. I usually don't see it often enough in one game to worry about it, but I'm not going to put up with it any longer than a coach's "three seconds" pleas.

Should players get Teed up for pointing in their direction on OOB violations that are bang bang ?

I don't know if it's worthy of a 'T' is all I'm saying. It's easy enough to ignore for me. It's just white noise. I suppose if every single shot someone was yelling it, I might have a chat with that kid, but that's an extreme example.

Right, and it's the extreme example you tend to see in summer ball or middle school ball, when johnny thinks he's Kobe Bryant or Ray Allen.

And I've never had to T for it, but I have made it clear that he/she needs to cut it out.

"That's impossible, coach. Do you know what the odds are of having the worst officials and the worst coach in the same game?" ;)

LOL....I love that!

Was working as an evaluator at a camp this past weekend. Had a younger official (22 I think) who was explaining a situation to a coach who had been "on the edge" all game. Official was using his hands to demonstrate whatever it was he saw, and the coach is looking at the official's hands when he says:

"Nice fingernails, Princess."

Young official calmly steps away, blows his whistle and signals a T. Never lost his composure, did not get mad - just simply turned and very calmly signals the T. I was quite impressed with his self-restraint.

I hate that AND 1 crap...basically I am just throwing out an idle threat...not really going to whack him. It did the trick!

It also depends on the tone of voice that is used during the "AND 1" statement! At times it borders on unsporting behavior.

There was an official around here named Jeff (unfortunately, he passed away a while back) who, the first time a coach or player would say "And 1", would reply loudly "Don't give me any of that 'And 1' crap". As far as I know, it always worked.

Had one last night where A1 drives to the basket, B1 blocks the shot, no contact whatsoever, but as B2 recovers the ball and they head the other way, A1 turns to me and says, "You gotta call something!!" WHACK! Team A coach says, "How can you T him up for that, that was the first thing he has said all game?" This made me smile on the inside.

Point being, I put up with zero comments like this from players during summer ball. Just because their HS coach isn't there is no excuse for them to act disrespectful. I may not have T'd him if there was some contact that I deemed incidental, or if it wasn't specifically directed at me and said a little more quietly. As with the "And 1" stuff, you just cannot ignore it. Say something to nip it, or take care of it.

I can and I do. I've never had it get to the point where I had to say anything. Shrug.

same here...it's really no big deal

Sometimes, what you ignore comes across as what you condone.

Every official sets their own personal limits as to what they will take and let go. As with everything else we do, the key is to be consistent. If the players and coaches know what they can do or not do during a game, they have no valid complaints at all if they get nailed for crossing an official's line. It's up to the coaches and player to adjust to the individual official's standards when it comes to sportsmanship-related situations, not vice-versa.

And there's different ways to control a game also while getting the same result. If the journey ends well, who cares how you got there. I was always on the hard-azz side of the spectrum but if someone at the other end still had the game under control and being played fairly with minimal displays of boolsh!t, who can say for sure that my way was really better?

JMO.

I don't even know who you are anymore.

Which is why, before a game when a coach asks, "How are you?", my answer is always "Cranky". Gives them a heads up. :cool:

Why? :confused:

I'm not talking about the no-brainer(to me) "T"s like swearing, throwing the ball away, bouncing it up to the rafters, Italian salutes, pulling a jersey over a face, putting on an elaborate show, etc. With those, you better take care of bidness. I'm talking about the annoying little crap like what's being discussed in this particular thread. There's a heckuva difference there imo.

Nah, I agree with you. But you're nothing like your caricature. :)

One could also say that if you go looking for trouble, you will likely find it. We can discuss fortune cookie sayings all day long. I just don't see a kid shouting "And 1" as a technical foul.

Hmmmmm...I always pictured him more like Jeff Dunham's Walter.

http://www.dynintel.com/pics/jeff_dunham_walter.gif

So who's Ahmed?

Nothing at all has changed over the years.

http://www.animatedgif.net/people/ro...otchity_e0.gif

Same ol' kinder, gentler, loveable JR......

I think there are several posters who would qualify as dummies.

HEY! :mad:

http://rlv.zcache.com/i_resemble_tha...20qw9y_400.jpg

My .02
 

I give you Basketball folks credit.............1-4-6 are EJs in my baseball games.......

It helps having the T to meet them half way. :)
4 an 6 are Ts, 1 will get addressed just as quickly as a coach whining about the foul count.

Stan, as a new basketball official, newer football official and a not-as-new baseball umpire, I've come to appreciate the ability in basketball and football to T up a player or drop a flag for USC. Baseball really gives us no choice but to send them to the parking lot.

Or - You're right coach - they send the worst of us to do the games with the worst teams.

Similar to "Hey ref, you're missing a good game!" "I know, coach, but unfortunately they sent me here instead."

I agree on 4 and 6. 1 is a swift and stern warning.

That's really a put down of the kids. I would rather not do that. Putting down the coaches is different. They're adults - at least chronologically. :rolleyes:

after one of my games. fairly casual game with about 10 fouls called on the losing team and 5 on the winning team.
losing coach--- "you did a great job"
losing and winning fans-- "nice game ref"
winning coach "you sucked"

me "huh" I think it was because his team nearly gave up a 10 point lead with a minute to go and they choked a few games last year in the 4th so probably brought back bad memories.
Well, see you in the regular season buddy. I think he had the most Techs last year. Going to enjoy T'ing him up.

Lah me......:rolleyes:

Real officials forget all about comments like that. Everybody starts fresh the next game.

You're in the wrong avocation, Mutant. You should have never crawled out of the stands.

Grain Of Salt ...
 

Agree. However, it nice to hear postive comments from a losing coach. I just don't let it go to my head.

...provided you don't wear stripes.

I am going to disagree with this. We are still talking about human beings here and anytime someone treats you with disrespect that should not be simply forgotten. Now as an official we might not go out and look for them to mess up the next time, but whatever happens the coaches do not forget, so we should not forget either. As a matter of fact the fact that I remember makes me handle the next situation differently. But I would not say they are on a clean slate, they just have my attention as they probably did not before.

Peace

And I completely disagree with an attitude like that. Imo you should try to treat the next situation exactly the same way that you treat every situation. You react to that particular situation based only on what happens during that particular situation. And all coaches(good and bad) should always be treated exactly the same as any other coach, no matter what happened in the past.

As officials, what we personally think of any participant in a game should never have any bearing on any call that we make or influence us to do something that we would normally not do in similar situations. It's human nature to maybe like or dislike someone for varying reasons, but that should never be a factor imo in anything that we do during a game.

A comment like "going to enjoy T'ing him up" sends the wrong message to anyone that believes that officials should be neutral and have short memories. I've had good, level-headed coaches blow up at me when I screwed up a call at a critical point in a game. I deal with it and then forget it. There's no need ever to treat the dickhead coaches any differently imo.

Fair's fair.

That's part of our job and we have to expect that from some of the people that we have to deal with.

What comes up, we deal with. But we don't go looking. And we shouldn't have any pre-conceived ideas of how we should deal with a problem.

Treat exactly the same? I cannot agree with that at all. Even coaches do not treat their players exactly the same. Why would I treat coaches the same when they do not treat us the same. I am not saying go out and get a coach, but if a coach and I have had a problem, I might say little to nothing to that coach. I know I would probably tell my partners that I have had "history" with that coach.

There is a coach in my state that me and him never seemed to get along. It all started in a summer basketball game and every time I had him after that things would get worse. And I would have this guy every year in a major tournament. Then because I worked in his conference, I would have him again during the season and in a tournament shootout. It was to the point where it was becoming a distraction to working the games. And I never gave this guy a T, but he would go around and tell people that I was trying to throw him out of games. He even told partners this during the game and I would have the fewest fouls and say almost nothing to him unless he had a question (which he never did, just whined the entire game). And one of the reasons I hate the stop sign is the interaction I had with this coach who I gave that sign to him and it did nothing but make the situation worse. Then this same coach confronted me off the court, in a hospitality room where my mom happened to be there and even media members were present. And you think I do not see this guy in games and think of him the same as if nothing happened? Not a chance. It was so bad or obvious, that it became a running joke in a small circle my relationship or lack there of with this coach. He has not let it go; you think I am going to just be like, "OK, clean slate." I might not hold a grudge, but I certainly am not going to be phony either.

My comments have nothing to do with calls. I am not talking about what I call. I am talking about what I might do to handle a very hostile situation with a particular person. If it was hostile before, it might be hostile again. And in order to prevent that, I would like to act like there was a past and not act like nothing took place before. I know the coach or player will not give it a clean slate, so I would not treat it the same either.

I agree in principle that makes since. But reality is that we have all had situations with coaches and we walk away thinking we did not handle the first situation the best and try to learn from them. And then we go into the next game thinking we will not allow that to happen again and might say something to that effect. In my experience I have said to myself a similar thing, but then the coach realizes they are on borrowed time and do not reach the same level and nothing happens. Funny how that works sometimes.

Peace

Concur, the slate is clean for the next game(s). But, I also don't forget a coach, team, player I might have had an issue/situation with previously.

That's human nature. I'd be a liar if I said that I wasn't aware of past problems also with some coaches/players. You just can't let it affect the way that you call a game though. And you also can't let it become a distraction. You just have to take care of bidness without worrying about it.

JMO.

1) Yabut....you didn't let this jerk affect the way that you called his game, did you? You know in your own mind that you always gave him a fair game, right? No matter what he thought? You didn't go looking to "T" him up, did you? That was my point, Jeff.

2) You looked for a possible better way to handle future confrontations. Sureashell nuthin' the matter with that. You didn't restrict yourself to "I'm gonna "T" his azz up as soon as he looks at me sideways." There's always different routes to the same destination, but that route shouldn't include looking for confrontation imo. As I said, just deal with what happens.

Of course not. But it did affect how I approached him and it did affect what I said or did not say to my partners. Even in once case I did not say anything to two guys I had never worked with up until that point and the coach made very obvious comments to my partner where at half time one of my partners said to me, "This guy really hates you." And I had this coach about 3 more times after that.

True, I am just saying that to give a coach a clean slate sound great on paper, but does not work in practice all the time. All I am saying is do not forget when someone is treating you with completely and total disrespect. And you do not have to gun for them to make a point. If any coach is smart they know when they were out of line and that an official might have their number. I am just saying that you might have to talk about it with partners so that there is not something coming out of left field. I want to know when partners have problems with a coach so that "we" can handle the situation differently as a crew.

Peace

I think we all agree more than we disagree here.

There are coaches that we respect more so than others. That will always be the case. But, no-one is saying we sway our calls accordingly. To do so would be to work without integrity. However, if someone treats you unfairly, it's unrealistic to expect people to simply forget about it.

My point was, while we should give people a "fresh start" each game, we simply can't expect others to do the same for us. Even our fellow board members have varying degrees of respect of us. Is that fair? Probably not, but the paradigm that everyone has a fresh start includes a caveat. Just because you're looking to treat others fairly doesn't mean that others will reciprocate.

Target On His Back ...
 

A few years ago we had a very obnoxious coach who, after a serious injury to one of his players, who had been fouled, which was called, complained to me, and my partner, that some additional foul calls, previous to the injury, could have prevented the injury. He did this while both he, and his trainer, were attending to the injured player. We just moved further away from the "injury pow wow" to encourage the coach to just tend to his player. This was just a few minutes before halftime. During halftime my partner and I discussed the situation, and we both agreed that neither of us had charged a technical foul because both of us, independently, decided that a technical foul charged, in this particular situation, would have called attention away from the serious injury to the player. We both agreed that in the second half that the coach would have absolutely no leeway in terms of unsporting behavior. We left the locker room intent on charging a technical foul. First, and only time, in twenty-nine years, that I was "targeting" a coach. Wouldn't you know it, the coach didn't make a single complaint in the entire second half.

A missed chance. If something like this happens again, the technical will be charged, in a quiet manner, after the injured player is attended to. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, double shame on me.

good posts...

I rarely give out T's and only one to a coach and never to that one I mentioned. If I do give him a T it will be deserved but no there will not be a clean slate. Refs might let something slide the first game and give warnings but it adds up and no reason to let a coach continue his behavior. Some coaches and refs know each other and T's are no big deal because they respect each other(somewhat:rolleyes:) but this coach is just a dick.
so if he doesn't show the refs respect then yeah I'll T him up. If another coach did the exact same thing but it is the first time I'm reffing one of his/her games I might pass on a T but not with someone I've had issues with in the past.

Another thing. When I first started out I had other refs sometimes say "watch out for this coach", don't be afraid to give him a T" etc. I'd rather them not say anything and I'll be my own judge. So if I'm working with a partner who hasn't had the coach I'll keep my mouth shut and if I have the same coach I mentioned I won't bring up that incident but that's as far as my clean slate goes.

Why the difference? Why is the action T-worthy for one individual, but not another for the exact same action?

And that's exactly why you should be up in the stands yelling at the officials rather than being out on the floor masquerading as one.

You just don't get it.

mutantducky...If you haven't already blown off this comment, do so, and don't give it another thought.

Why? Are you agreeing it's ok for mutantducky to sit in the stands and yell at other officials?

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...nightmare.html

And you very obviously don't get it either. Maybe you should be sitting up there with the Mutant yelling at the officials along with him.

Feel free to blow off these comments also without giving them another thought.

JR tends to state things strongly:D but it's hard to argue with him here. Why is this any different than calling a personal foul on a player because he always fouled out "in the past."

Personally, if anything, I may be less likely to T a coach who has been a jerk in the past because I make a point of avoiding any interaction.

I happen to agree with JR's sentiments in post #61. For mutantducky to write that he would treat two coaches who did "the exact same thing" differently is as unfair and wrong an action that an official could take in a game.

We constantly talk about treating both teams equally. Mutantducky very clearly wrote that he wouldn't do that. There is no place for that in officiating.

Are you talking about in the same game or over time? I know that no two games are exactly the same and the calls needed in one game do not necessarily match those in another game. The same actions might elicit different responses depending on the scenario.

In different games, I very well may treat two coaches who did "the exact same thing" differently. I might even do it in the same game depending on the overall picture of events...not just based on the single action.

I agree with Camron when it comes to ABS stuff. I also agree somewhat with jar, in that I'm likely to attempt a little more preventative GM with a coach whom I've rung up before. Communicate with him earlier, most likely. It's more of a general growth approach for me, though; taking the Ts as learning experiences.

no, i'm only suggesting he blow off a ridiculous (and apparently venomous) directive from a fellow (anonymous) official (jurassic ref) to drop out of the fraternity for posting something relatively benign about his approach to handling coaches with technical fouls.

And you also think that it's "relatively benign" to advocate treating identical acts from different coaches completely differently depending on the past history of the individual coach? One act deserves a "T" because it came from a coach that gave you a hard time in the past.... but an identical act from a different coach is perfectly OK?

Methinks you also should be sitting beside the Mutant up in the stands. You're two of a kind ...and neither one of you gets it. Personally, I wouldn't want to share a court with either of you.

Real officials don't play favorites. And real officials actually do call it both ways.

JMRVO. :)

Actually, you don't "get it". Your attempts at being a dictator towards posters you don't even know are laughable. Who really knows, mutantducky might actually be a quack, but if your strong armed, alienating style on this forum is any reflection of your demeanor amongst your peers, then I'm surprised anyone other than the old codgers that have learned to put up with you would ever want to take the court with you.

Basketball officiating is not, above a certain level, about hugs and kisses. You run the game with confidence, or you're eaten alive. JR knows how to run a game smoothly. He doesn't need to know you. It's your prerogative not to get along with an alpha dog, but the content of what JR is telling you is, IMO, correct.

You know only the current, more nurturing JR -- you should have seen him back in the day!

I'm not talking about how he chooses to run a game. I'll take your word for it that he's a stallion. However, what I am talking about his inability to constructively discuss a topic on the internet with a fellow official - even if that fellow official might come off as a bit of a turd like ducky i.e. that link to his discussion about yelling at officials as a fan.

Heck, if JR is going to take the time to respond to mutantducky at all (he must see some value in it or he wouldn't 'waste his time'), then why not post something of value instead of raking the guy? If for no other reason than to help out lurkers (and we know there are plenty of those) that may be reading his posts for the first time and are genuinely interested in the thread up and to that point.

Instead, he shows his a$$.

Just ridiculous.

I don't think the following is "benign" at all:
The above, as stated, shows an obvious lack of consistency that every good official I know strives to avoid. That, along with the post telling about sitting in the stands and yelling at other officials (did you read that, by the way?), tells a lot of us that mutanyducky is a little lacking in the skills needed to become a good official.

Maybe the mutant mallard one was actually wanting to say what Camron Rust posted, about different situations in different games sometimes warrant different actions. Maybe the post about sitting in the stands was actually about being around a bunch of friends during the neighborhood driveway pickup game, and everyone was yucking it up. But that's not what was communicated, and communication is a big part of being a good official. So, either mutantducky is a poor communicator, or (s)he actually described what they did during actual games, which would also be the sign of an official that needs improvement.

Jurassic's post may have come across as a little blunt, but it usually comes as a result of many, many, many, many (ok, a lot of) years of experience, and he usually knows his stuff. Call it his version of tough love. But if his posts really bother you, how in the world can you handle an upset coach, especially one that happens to be right?

I hear what you are saying about JR. However, I'd rather read something that demonstrates his experience level regarding a legit OP instead of watching him chop a guy off below the knees that he doesn't see fit to tolerate. And, it doesn't really matter if he thinks mutantducky should sit in the stands and cheer full time. That's why there's an "ignore" feature. It would probably be worth his time to utilize it instead of flaming.

If he doesn't care to associate or work with him, then why in the heck does he care to respond to his posts?

For the very reason you mentioned earlier - there are a number of people that read this forum without ever responding or participating, so there is a need to help distinguish the legitimate disagreements from the stuff that's simply not right. Our job is hard enough without having someone post ideas and actions that are clearly outside the norm of what is considered good officiating, and then have others pick up on those incorrect ideas and continue them, thinking that it must be ok because someone posted it on the forum.

JR's posts come from both a passion to get it right, as well as a bit of a discussion history with ducky. It may help on your end to be a little more aware of how the posts came about, and the history involved, rather than simply stepping in and dismissing them as coming from from some old guy that doesn't get it anymore. (Well, ok, I won't argue the point about him being old. Really old. So old that...oh, never mind. ;)) The communication in your posts seems to say that he should be ignored because the ducky one was correct, so that will earn you some comments in your direction. Take them or leave them.

I could care less what mutantducky thinks about what I have to say. And I doubt very much if the Mutant will ever lose a second's sleep about anything that I have to say either. I do care though about the people who read what the Mutant is advocating and maybe mistakingly think that there is a possibility that there is some validity in his ramblings.

What it comes down to is that an official's most important attribute is and will always be his integrity. And a great part of our integrity is the dogma that we try to treat everybody the same, no matter our personal likes or dislikes. If we don't, then we become the Tim Donaghy's of the world.

No argument from me on that one. I'd only add that there are probably better ways to convince the lurking masses not to follow the Pied Ducky. Your way is effective, I'm sure. But, is looks crude.

No argument there, either.

hua :-)

Amen to this!

Double amen here! Preach it, brother! Can I get a "hell, yeah?"

Wait ... is this the "tent revival" forum? :o

M&M is right: consistency is incredibly important, regardless at which level you're fortunate enough to be calling. The higher up you go in officiating, the better being consistent serves you and the more closely it's scrutinized.

Regardless of your personal history with a coach or player, you'll find yourself miles and miles ahead by treating everyone the same ... which means like penalties for like actions.

I learned from the start here that some people will just throw hissy fits if you disagree with them so after a while I stopped caring what they thought. Even some posts from me and other posters that I thought were benign would result name calling.
Not a fan of total uniformity for refs which a few here seen to support. When I started officiating I saw refs rip into each other good-naturedly I think:rolleyes: so yeah they are used to having thick skins but here not always on differences of opinions. I'm a ref and a FAN and I'll continue to be one and I won't be one of those dicks who yell and whine about all the calls.

But forums are about discussion and debate so eh, whatever. I try to learn here and have a little fun.

and to my critics the next time you hear booing from the stands that is from me. muhahahahahaha. :p

Crude is sometimes effective. And don't mistake crude with blunt. And as I've already stated, I don't really think that the Mutant actually cares one iota about what I do or say anyway.

There are quite a few posters in this thread saying the exact same things that I'm saying, but maybe doing so a little nicer. But, those posters also have great credibility imo when it comes to officiating philosophies too. Hell, if they told me that I'm doing something wrong, I'd sureasheck start to question myself in a hurry.

The message is what is important, not the envelope that it comes in.

JMVO.

I believe in treating people with respect or the way you want to be treated, but not the same. We are all not the same so you should not be treated as such JMO.

Peace

That has not been my experience at all.

HEY - I resemble that remark.

http://www.realestatewebmasters.com/.../angrybaby.jpg

Are you talking about how you treat different coaches/players and/or people in general....or both?

Good points.

p.s. help me out...."Just My Veluptous Opinion"???? :)

I treat people in the games I officiate like I would have wanted or would want to be treated out of that world. It is all the same to me.

Peace

I wish that were true, sir.

I still have plenty to learn about the officiating world, but one thing that's universal is that being right isn't enough with some people. The reality is, sometimes, you have to know how to present it to be effective.

As someone once said to me, just because you're serving filet mignon doesn't mean you should serve it on a garbage can lid.

Well said. I couldn't agree more.

Everyone has a different personality, approach to the game, perspective, background, etc.

That requires me as an official to choose how I communicate and handle people carefully - and often, differently.

Are you kidding? My dog wouldn't care at all. :)