end of game
 

Game is tied. A1 is fouled just before the horn sounds to end the game. Team A is in the bonus. A1 goes to the line to attempt the free throw. B1 wants to occupy a lane space. We eventually removed him to allow A1's attempt. What if B1 did not leave? Lane violation if free throw is missed? Or Unsportsmanship Technical foul?

Remember the rules state that when the ball is to remain dead following the final FT players shall not occupy the marked lane spaces. They aren't required to leave the court or such, so this simply means that they must follow the requirements for players not in marked lane spaces, ie be behind the FT line extended and outside of the 3pt line.

So if a player is inside of that restricted area, then a FT violation has been committed.

The player could be charged with a technical foul for failing to adhere to the official's instruction, but that seems over the top to me.

PS I always read your posts because you ask great questions. I've learned plenty from some of your keen observations.

Well thank you!!! I too always respect you Statements, Comments, and opinions.:)

Well, if the love fest is over, I have a comment to add. :rolleyes:

I could see calling a lane violation here, but I would also communicate with the player. "You're not allowed in the lane. If you remain, he gets to keep shooting till he makes them both." If we're talking about the real world, that would probably be sufficient.

As a practical matter, at lower levels where it might take 25 minutes for a kid to make 2 free throws, I could see assessing a T for non-compliance. I agree with Nevada that this would be over the top as first resort.

Of course, if he's not clearing the lane for one kind of FT, why would he leave for the other? ;)

Really ...
 

Get a room.

I suppose it matters how badly he wants it.

"I'd like to occupy a lane space." Violation if missed.

"I'm taking this lane space, ref!" Technical.

"Get back, ref, before I punch you in the face!" Flagrant.

Really?

I think I'd just say "OK....it will be a violation if the shooter misses".....let the shot happen....call the violation if missed.

If the foul occurred before the end of the game, shouldn't there be some time on the clock?

If you do choose to clear the lane and a player refuses. That would fall under your delay of game/unsporting infractions.

Not necessarily. If none of the officials see time on the clock after the whistle blows, there will be no time on the clock when the FTs are shot.

Just go with a delayed violation, IMO. No need to make this harder than that.

The way this will play out:
"ref, I want to stand on the lane."
"Well, if you do, it's a violation."
"Never mind."

I respectfully disagree with this interpretation.

I am not administrating the free throw until the player vacates the marked lane spaces. By rule he is delaying the administration of a free throw - according to rule 10 in the NCAA manual.

As far as the time is concerned, there is never an excuse for a 3-person crew to not be fully aware of game clocks/shot clocks ESPECIALLY at the end of a ballgame. If the foul occured before the clock shows zeroes, the exact time when the whistle blew should be put back on the clock. Otherwise, if the foul ocurred at or following the expiration of time it is ignored.

Fair enough; let's just say I feel more confident in explaining a violation to my assigner, based on very direct rules backing, than I would in using rule 10 to justify a T for delaying making the ball live. He's not delaying unless you let him. Simply give the ball to the shooter, now it's live.

As for the end of game situation; you can be aware all you want, but if the foul occurs with roughly .2 second left, by the time the on-ball official blows the whistle causing the partner to look at the clock, the horn will have blown.

Let me set it this way, tio.

Normal FT for A1. B5 is not along the lane, but drops along the 3 pt line to a spot even with the lower block. You tell him to move up, and he doesn't.

What do you do?

Tell him to move, and if he doesn't (and is persistent about it, ....) then I T him up.

I agree with Tio in the OP (but it's all theoretical -- it will never come to that).

This can happen even if the crew is perfectly aware of the time....

A1 goes up to shoot, releases the ball, horn sounds, and before A1 lands, B5 crashes into A1 knocking A1 into the 3rd row. The time legitamately ran out prior to the ball becoming dead or the shooter lands.

Even more common...

A1 goes up to shoot and, before A1 lands, B5 crashes into A1, horn sounds, whistle sounds (patient whistle...as it is generally bad habit to blow the whistle the instant there is contact). This is not all that unreasonable and, without video replay to get the exact time the foul occured, there will be no basis for adding time back to the clock...but the foul occurred before the horn and is sufficient to warrant a foul.

I had something similar happen in a game this last season. Seconds left in the 4th quarter with a tie game. Team A dribbler drives the lane, goes airborne for a shot, gets fouled and releases the shot. I hit my whistle for the foul and the horn sounds a fraction of a second later. The shot does not go in, so we shoot two with the lane cleared (he missed them both).

So... you are going to allow B1 to linger before you administrate the Free Throw to A1. You are playing right into his hands. You are helping B1 'Ice' the shooter.
We got grilled from one of our observers because we did not administrate the Free Throw in an appropriate time frame. Once I informed B1 that if he did not move, then A1 was going to shoot the free throw until he made it. That got him to obey.
Unless the game clock was staring us in the face we were not going to be able to observe the time. Our lag time to turn our heads to see the clock would have been slower than the lag time of the game clock timekeeper.

Correct as per NFHS rule 5-6-2 EXCEPTION3- "If a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped BEFORE time expires or after time expires, but while the ball is in flight for a try or tap for field goal, the quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity gave been completed."

NCAA rule 5-7-3(c) basically says the exact same thing.

I am going to "ask" him to go where he belongs. If he refuses, I will proceed with the delay process. You chose a different way to get through this and I applaud your efforts. However, I don't believe the rules support administering a free throw with anyone in the lane when the ball is to become dead after the final shot. If the rules & actions support my call, I never have to worry about my decision.

With the clock, I would probably get rid of the lagtime term. This term was removed from the NFHS manual a couple of years ago. On every play, there is a 3rd official away who should be all over the clock. Things can get complicated if you are in an auxiliary gym with only one clock on the baseline. The way I read the OP was that the whistle clearly sounded before the expiration of time. If that is the case, the crew needs to be really good and know the remaining time. Especially true at the end of a close ballgame.

Just curious, so a few questions:

Would you hold up the administration of a normal FT if a player were standing outside of the 3pt line, but well below the FT line extended?

Would you ask this player to go where he belongs?

What penalty would you assess if he doesn't move?

Yes, Yes, T.

What do you do if you notice A and B occupying the "opposite spaces" before you administer a FT? What if B chooses not to occupy a space and A puts an "extra" player in there? What if B tries to go "below" the block?

I ask them to move, and they do. If they refused, then I'd deal with that.

Bob,
I agree that the officials should check that the players are properly lined up prior to administering the FT.

I'm not sure that a T is the proper penalty. What rule would you point to for issuing a T here?

What's "the delay process?"
While lagtime isn't in the book; all that means is we can put .5 back up if that's what we see. The problem is, there is still a human reaction time that is going to take a brief moment to look at the clock. As has been pointed out, a lot of times you'll have foul, horn, whistle.
And in the situations where you have foul, whistle (at, say .3 seconds), horn, I think you're expecting too much of the off-call officials to react quickly enough to see any time on the clock.

Especially if you're working two person with only one scoreboard in the gym.

True, but even with three of you and 5 clocks, with that little time on the clock, it's easy to miss. Especially on, say, a shot at the FT line.

Failing to allow the ball to become live -- 10-3-6(?) The same rule used when the FTer is not in the semi-circle.

Fwiw....+1

Just tell the player what the rule is. If the player doesn't want to follow a rule, it's an easy "T" under 10-3-6. And if the l'il sh!t is still adamant about not moving and his coach doesn't want to do anything about it either, I ain't gonna argue with him/them any further. Give 'em a minute to comply and then it's Hasta La Vista; forfeit under 5-4-1. Put the onus where it belongs- on the person(s) causing the problem. And that includes the head coach who is supposed to be in control of his players.

We should never have to plead with anybody to have a simple rule followed.

I am fairly convinced that if this situation took place, I could say what I needed to say to not have to give a T at least in a situation where the ball is dead. I think this is a very good question, but sometimes we have to figure out how to talk to people and get what we want, even with some conflict as apart of the situation.

Peace

Again, I'm an official in other sports, but not basketball. I have to ask, though, how this is possible (assuming we're not in a running clock game).

Either the foul happened before the buzzer, thus leaving SOME time on the clock... or it didn't, thus there was no foul.

Human reaction time, to be blunt. :)

There's the reaction time of the person running the clock. Then there's the reaction time of the non-calling officials hearing the whistle then looking at the clock.

Even if we know there was a short time lag, if we don't see how much time to put back on the clock, by rule we can't guess.

Also, as has been pointed out, 99% of the time, there will be a lag between the actual foul and the whistle. The contact/foul could happen with a second remaining. The whistle could blow with .2 second remaining. The timer's reaction time takes .2 second, and so does the off-ball official's.

In NFHS, we don't get to use video replays for this.

In basketball, you're only allowed to put time back on the clock with definite knowledge. That includes either an official looking at the clock and seeing a specific time, or using an offiicial's count. We are not allowed to say, "Well, I know the whistle came before the horn, so let's put back up, say, .3 seconds." We have to see the .3 on the clock.

Another example would be ball is inbounded in the backcourt, A1 dribbles the ball towards the midcourt line, an official is visibly counting the 10 seconds, is up to 6, and notices the clock hasn't started. The official is allowed to blow the whistle, take 6 seconds off the clock, and put the ball back in play.

1) The ball can be live even after time has expired.

2) The timer's reaction to the whistle will be after the foul, so time can expire. If there's replay, then you can put the time back (NCAA). Without it, you can't.

According to NCAA rules there are 2 specific free throw administration sequences:

1. When ball is live on an unsuccessful final attempt. (typical result)

2. When the ball is to become dead after the final attempt regardless of a make/miss. (Technical, intentional fouls and when complicated by the expiration of time)

For scenario 1, we have the resumption of play procedure if the players will not line up properly. So for your scenario where a player is below 3 pt line extended, we can go ahead and call a violation. I would ask the player to move first.

For scenario 2, all the rules say is that players shall not line up along the marked lane spaces. If a player lines up and doesn't move I would cite:

Rule 10.2.5

Art. 5. A team shall not delay the game, when the game clock is not running,
by:

b. After a team warning has been issued, repeatedly delaying the game
by preventing the ball from being promptly put in play, such as
delaying the administration of a throw-in or free throw by engaging
in a team huddle anyplace on the playing court

My 2 cents.

Stupid Rule ...
 

And the team gets a new "whole" ten seconds.

Frontcourt, Backcourt, Forecourt, Midcourt ???
 

Please call it the division line. The word midcourt line brings back memories of different, now extinct, rules to those of us who have been around the block a few times.

Thanks all ... got it now! :)