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hoopguy Mon Jun 14, 2010 03:20pm

Unsporting Tech
 
Spent the weekend watching daughter's AAU. Found a couple interesting observations.

One team had a little bit of attitude with refs but seemed typical for AAU. After the game, the girls asked me if I had seen a particular incident and I did not see it from the sidelines. After a foul call, as the calling official was reporting the foul, the girl who committed the foul gave him the finger with both hands from behind him so that he did not see. From my vantage point on the sidelines, I did see the girls on that team giggling as the free throws were being shot but I did not know the reason at the time. The calling official’s partner had not crossed the division line so he was in no position to see this either. My question is, if you were the non calling official and were in position to see the player give your partner the finger behind his back, what would you call? I am thinking flagrant unsporting Tech. Is that overboard? Should it just be an unsporting tech? What about a varsity game? What call to make?

Another AAU play that caught my attention... Inbounds pass under team A's basket. Player A1 throws the ball deep and player A2 can just reach up and touches the ball in the front court and then chases into the back court and grabs the ball. The official does not call a backcourt violation. The player A2, assuming it is a backcourt violation begins walking the ball back toward the official and commits an obvious traveling violation and then realizes what is happening and passes the ball. No idea why the official missed the obvious travel but got the fact that it was not backcourt. Maybe he was congratulating himself or arguing with the coach. After the game, I saw the coach questioning the official about that particular non call on the backcourt so I think he may have been distracted. It seemed funny how he got the tough call but missed the easy one.

Mark Padgett Mon Jun 14, 2010 03:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopguy (Post 681878)
My question is, if you were the non calling official and were in position to see the player give your partner the finger behind his back, what would you call?

This is a flagrant technical foul at any level, except perhaps the NBE. Ask yourself this - what does that gesture indicate? It doesn't matter if the player verbalizes that thought or transmits it in a gesture, it means the same thing.

Frankly, it shouldn't just be an ejection, but also a suspension at that level. If it happened in a kids game I was working and the player didn't also get a suspension, I'd raise a huge stink.

I can't even imagine how you could think it might just be a non-flagrant technical.

Adam Mon Jun 14, 2010 03:32pm

1. Easy flagrant.

2. LOL, I'm sure it's happened to me before.

DLH17 Mon Jun 14, 2010 03:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 681881)
1. Easy flagrant.

2. LOL, I'm sure it's happened to me before.

hahaha...that's exactly what i was thinking...errr...meaning, it's probably happened to ME before. :)

lord knows i've gotten looks that convey the same message.

Adam Mon Jun 14, 2010 03:41pm

I know there have been times I've missed an illegal dribble because I get straightlined by either the defender or the dribbler. I've told the coach, "yeah, I'm sure she did, I just couldn't see it from my angle and I'm not going to guess."

On the play in question, I could see myself responding, "No, coach, I didn't see it because I glanced at you to answer your question." (snarky part to keep out: "It won't happen again.")

APG Mon Jun 14, 2010 04:20pm

1. That's an easy flagrant technical foul. I can't see at any level of play, 5 year old all the way to the NBA, where a player would remain in the game for doing this.

2. Sometimes, stuff happens. This would be a play where I wouldn't mind a partner coming in and getting the play. Especially if it's as blatant as you made it sound out to be. Surprised B's coach didn't give the non-calling official heck

Adam Mon Jun 14, 2010 04:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 681900)
1. That's an easy flagrant technical foul. I can't see at any level of play, 5 year old all the way to the NBA, where a player would remain in the game for doing this.

2. Sometimes, stuff happens. This would be a play where I wouldn't mind a partner coming in and getting the play. Especially if it's as blatant as you made it sound out to be. Surprised B's coach didn't give the non-calling official heck

2. he was probably looking at the official and asking why he didn't call a backcourt violation.

APG Mon Jun 14, 2010 04:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 681905)
2. he was probably looking at the official and asking why he didn't call a backcourt violation.

I would still think he'd be able to see a player walking with the basketball but that does make sense haha

Adam Mon Jun 14, 2010 05:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 681908)
I would still think he'd be able to see a player walking with the basketball but that does make sense haha

True, or he realized the reason the official didn't see it was because the two (official and coach) were engaged in conversation. :D

I also agree that I wouldn't mind my partner catching this if he sees I'm talking to the coach.

Jurassic Referee Mon Jun 14, 2010 05:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopguy (Post 681878)
1) My question is, if you were the non calling official and were in position to see the player give your partner the finger behind his back, what would you call?

2) Inbounds pass under team A's basket. Player A1 throws the ball deep and player A2 can just reach up and touches the ball in the front court and then chases into the back court and grabs the ball. The official does not call a backcourt violation. The player A2, assuming it is a backcourt violation begins walking the ball back toward the official and commits an obvious traveling violation and then realizes what is happening and passes the ball.

1) No brainer. Flagrant technical foul on the l'il sh!t, no matter the age. Might as well learn now.

2) Never a backcourt violation under NFHS/NCAA rules. The subsequent travel should have been called. We don't teach the rules; we just call 'em. And have to explain 'em.

APG Mon Jun 14, 2010 05:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 681910)
True, or he realized the reason the official didn't see it was because the two (official and coach) were engaged in conversation. :D

He was probably telling the official how he was absolutely correct in not calling a backcourt violation. :D Official was so shocked that the coach agreed that he missed the travel. ;)

dsqrddgd909 Tue Jun 15, 2010 06:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post 681879)
This is a flagrant technical foul at any level, except perhaps the NBE. Ask yourself this - what does that gesture indicate? It doesn't matter if the player verbalizes that thought or transmits it in a gesture, it means the same thing.

Frankly, it shouldn't just be an ejection, but also a suspension at that level. If it happened in a kids game I was working and the player didn't also get a suspension, I'd raise a huge stink.

I can't even imagine how you could think it might just be a non-flagrant technical.

Do you see it as different than verbalizing it? I would have gone with non-flagrant.
10-3-6 b. covers obscene gestures.
4-19-4 defines Flagrant "...noncontact which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive contact conduct."

Fixed it.

Mark Padgett Tue Jun 15, 2010 06:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909 (Post 682080)
Do you see it as different than verbalizing it? I would have gone with non-flagrant.
10-3-6 b. covers obscene gestures.
4-19-4 defines Flagrant "...noncontact which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive contact."

You made a mistake when you copied 4-19-4. It doesn't say "vulgar or abusive contact" - it says "vulgar or abusive conduct". Flipping off an official is definitely vulgar conduct.

Adam Tue Jun 15, 2010 06:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909 (Post 682080)
Do you see it as different than verbalizing it? I would have gone with non-flagrant.
10-3-6 b. covers obscene gestures.
4-19-4 defines Flagrant "...noncontact which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive contact."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post 682086)
You made a mistake when you copied 4-19-4. It doesn't say "vulgar or abusive contact" - it says "vulgar or abusive conduct". Flipping off an official is definitely vulgar conduct.

I'm with Padgett on this one, easy flagrant. I'd say "especially in summer ball," but it's such a no-brainer for me even in regular season HS ball, it really doesn't make sense to add "especially in...."

APG Tue Jun 15, 2010 07:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 682088)
Also, and this is just a thought, but directing your warning to the partners and the rest of the gym really comes across as demeaning and dismissive. IMO, it's better to warn the coach and inform your parters than it is to phrase your warning as a statement to your partners.

Wrong thread? ;)

Welpe Tue Jun 15, 2010 07:48pm

"Snaqs is done cross-posting tonight."

Adam Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:29pm

I have no idea what you guys are talking about.

http://www.animationplayhouse.com/big_grin.gif

dsqrddgd909 Wed Jun 16, 2010 05:24pm

Thanks Mark, Snaq and Nevada,

I have fixed my post. Anyone know how to do <Strike> line through</strike> editing?

Nevadaref Wed Jun 16, 2010 07:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909 (Post 682227)
Thanks Mark and Snaq,

I have fixed my post. Anyone know how to do <strike>line through editing</strike>?

Like that?

Type strike in <....> before the text and /strike in <...> following it.

Camron Rust Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 682242)
Like that?

Type strike in <....> before the text and /strike in <...> following it.

Sort of like this...

&lt;strike&gt;words to strike out&lt;/strike&gt;

dsqrddgd909 Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:58am

Thanks everyone.

Welpe Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:36am

It is < S>Words to strike out < / S>

just remove the spaces.

<S>Words to strike out </S>

Raymond Thu Jun 17, 2010 01:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 682356)
It is < S>Words to strike out < / S>

just remove the spaces.

<S>Words to strike out </S>

<s>Shut up</s> Nevada!!

Yaay, it worked.

Jurassic Referee Thu Jun 17, 2010 01:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 682383)
<FONT SIZE = +4>Shut up Nevada!!</FONT>

Yaay, it worked.

Fixed it for you......

Maybe now it'll work. :D

Nevadaref Thu Jun 17, 2010 05:35pm

Nevada can't hear you. His ears are full with the sounds of vuvuzelas. :D

Jurassic Referee Thu Jun 17, 2010 06:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 682420)
Nevada can't hear you. His ears are full with the sounds of vuvuzelas. :D

Two amazing events today:

1) Mexico won 2- 0,

2) France didn't surrender.

mbyron Thu Jun 17, 2010 07:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 682423)
2) France didn't surrender.

You're so old, you think people might get this. :D

Pantherdreams Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:45am

Some comments and actions that led to unsportsmanlikes (techs) this past season in games I worked. SOme were ABS but others I thought were funny but my partner did not:

- COach to player 13 across the gym "It's Ok Richie I'ld travel too if I got whacked in the face!"

- "This game is terrible right now and its your fault."

- In response to "Coach you just worry about your job." "Does that mean you are going start worrying about yours?"

- "Jeeze you want to screw someone this bad get a girlfriend!"

- "You might be the worst official I've ever seen, except that you didn't work the first half alone."

- "If I get my kids to put on the home teams blood jerseys in the second half can we get a foul call."

- Coach to his player who's just been given a tech. "Jimmy! Just because he's been an ******* all night (points to ref) doesn't mean you are allowed to be! Show some class."

Jurassic Referee Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams (Post 682562)
- In response to <font color = red>"Coach you just worry about your job."</font> "Does that mean you are going start worrying about yours?"

And that's exactly why we shouldn't be making comments like this imo. You're inviting a response like that one, a response you might then have to deal with.

Stick to short, neutral statements like "that's enough" if you want to give a warning. Put the onus where it belongs.

Judtech Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:03pm

Wifey got away with one today:
"If you quit doing the 'alligator chomp' with your with your arms, you MIGHT notice the body contact AND know who the ball went out on! I don't care if it was blocked up top, its the block to my shooters body I am worried about"
Thankfully I had a towel I could bury my face into so no one would see me laughing! I was just waiting for the whistle to blow for the "T" and it never came!

Later in the game the referee asked her for a towel to clean up some water by the other bench. She said "With all those crocodile tears she's been crying all game I am suprised there isn't a flood down there!" (She is BFF"s with that coach, so there was some good natured ribbing going on)

Judtech Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:10pm

I agree with using the 'neutral words' BUT my inner filter would say:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams (Post 682562)
- COach to player 13 across the gym "It's Ok Richie I'ld travel too if I got whacked in the face!" You mean like this? "T"?"

- "This game is terrible right now and its your fault."Which is rather ironic since I am not actually playing." or "Right now? This game has been terrible since I saw it on my schedule"

- In response to "Coach you just worry about your job." "Does that mean you are going start worrying about yours?"No, but I do appreciate your concern.

- "Jeeze you want to screw someone this bad get a girlfriend!"Maybe I don't like girls?

- "You might be the worst official I've ever seen, except that you didn't work the first half alone."Really? I can name at least 2 officials worse than me, but for the life of me I can't think of any worse coaches than you

- "If I get my kids to put on the home teams blood jerseys in the second half can we get a foul call."Only if he has had his shots
I couldn't think of anything off the top of my head for the last one



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