Why call traveling? It's the NBE.
 

Next time SC airs take a look at the highlight clip of Rondo diving on the floor for a loose ball, recovering it, getting up, and then starting a dribble and scoring.

I'm no expert on the NBA rules, so I did some checking and couldn't find anything in them stating that this play is illegal. Apparently, one can stand up with the ball in the NBE.

If that's true, then the rules for this league are even more of a joke than I thought. If it's not true, then this play wasn't called correctly.

He was not holding the ball when he stood up. Ball was on the floor with the hand on top.

So is a player allowed to pin the ball to the floor, stand up, then bring the ball up?

Or is a player allowed to set the ball on the floor next to him, stand up, and then pick up the ball?

That is NOT a travel using the NBA rule set.

Video Rule Book - Home

I just looked in the NBA rulebook and couldn't find a citation. Must be in the casebook.

A very noticeable NBA no-call though.....

Watch the players outside the 3-point line on a free throw. By rule(I looked it up), they have to stay behind the line until the ball leaves the FT shooter' s hands. In practice, on almost every FT someone out there is coming in early and getting away with it every time. In their last series, the l'il guard from Orlando(I think) got a key rebound and put-back late in a game when he was 4' over the line before the ball left. In the game last night there was a coupla times that players were way over the line early. That one just never seems to be called, and it's obvious as hell.

EDit: shown on the link supplied above by AllPurposeGamer. It ain't being called!

Thanks for the link. I'm now 100% certain that the NBE rules are a joke. All that they are designed to do is favor the offense and ensure a high-scoring game in the hopes of selling tickets, garnering TV viewership, and increasing revenues.
It's not competitive basketball. It's an entertainment show.

Date Updated:

10/15/2009
Title:

Legal Play, Offensive Player with the ball gets up off the floor
Commentary:

This is an example of LEGAL play by an offensive player in possession of the ball. When in possession of the ball while on the floor, an offensive player is permitted to stand up, establish a pivot foot and resume play. Here, the offensive player loses the ball and then regains possession after going to the floor. He then regains his feet, establishes his pivot and resumes play. This is a legal play.

My 16 yr old came bounding down the stairs yesterday after this play......"Dad. did you see that?"

Me, "Son, the rules in the NBA are different than your HS rules. Don't try to compare the two.""

My son, "Really? What a joke."

And hence why our jobs are even more difficult as more and more folks see plays this and think it's ok at their level.......

Unless I am missing something at the other codes, this would be legal in all of basketball not just the NBA. Rondo was not holding the ball independently of it touching the floor. Maybe it is a loophole in the rule, but I do not see anything that says this is illegal for a player to do this at all.

And let say this is illegal at our levels and the NBA says this is legal? So what? It is the pros; there are a lot of pro things legal that are not legal in the college and high school ranks. Baseball has many rules like that as an example. You might not like their rules, but that does not make them a joke when the rules promote offense. In the NFL a passer can throw the ball away to save a loss of yardage as long as the ball crosses the line of scrimmage (even out of bounds). You cannot do that in NF Football rules and this rule is to benefit the offense. Why would anyone be surprised that the NBA might have a rule that does the same?

Peace

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her
back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling
unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises
and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)


Now we can discuss whether Rondo had gained control of the ball.

Why not?


This is clearly not what happened.

A player is in control while holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds. Rondo did neither.

The NCAA book says the same thing as the NFHS on this point.

A.R. 117. Is it traveling when a player:
(1) Falls to the playing court while holding the ball without
maintaining a pivot foot; or
(2) Falls to the playing court on both knees while holding the
ball without maintaining a pivot foot; or
(3) Gains control of the ball while on the playing court and
then, because of momentum, rolls or slides, after which the
player passes or starts a dribble before getting to his or her feet?
RULING: (1) and (2) Yes, when the pivot foot is not maintained because
it is virtually impossible not to move the pivot foot when falling to the
playing floor.
(3) No. The player may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a timeout. Once
the player has the ball and is no longer sliding, he or she may not roll over.
When flat on his or her back, the player may sit up without violating.
When the player puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is the first to
touch the ball, it also is traveling. When a player rises to his or her feet
while holding the ball, it is traveling. When a player falls to one knee
while holding the ball, it is traveling if the pivot foot moves.
(Rule 4-70.6 and 4-70.1)

Are you sure?

DRIBBLE – LEGAL AND ILLEGAL MOVEMENT
4.15 COMMENT: It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. A player
is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds
from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass
away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control
under these conditions. It is a dribble when a player stands still and bounces the
ball. It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches
it to the floor once or more than once.

Granted he wasn't standing, but was Rondo holding the ball while touching it to the floor?

We know that doesn't constitute a dribble, so if the official deems him to be holding the ball, then getting up would be illegal.

Rondo did not "touch the ball to the floor." It was already touching the floor.
In my view, he was not holding the ball.

Wow, when I saw the replay last night, my first comment was that he traveled. It was obvious. Then I thought I remembered that the NBA rule was different on this particular play.

I still say, by NFHS rules, it was a travel. He held it, put it on the floor, stood up, tweet.

The ones arguing against a travel seem to suggest that if he'd taken his hand off the ball when he put it on the floor, it would have been a travel. IOW, if he'd relinquished a bit of physical control, it would have been illegal. The flip side is, by maintaining a hold on the ball and pinning it against the floor, he has found a loophole. I highly doubt that's the intent of the rule.

Question for those who think pinning the ball to the floor is not holding it: A1 dives for a loose ball, pinning it to the floor with one arm. B2 comes in and simultaneously pins it to the floor with one arm. Do you have a held ball here?

Nevada also clearly points out the rule that says pinning it to the floor is not a dribble and thus a player would be called for traveling if he pins it and proceeds to move his pivot foot outside of the prescribed limits.

It is not necessary for a player to be holding the ball in order to have a held ball.

Good point, just re-read the def of held ball.
The rest of my post still stands. Are you suggesting that the rules committee wants the player to be able to stand while pinning it to the floor but not while releasing it ?

This seems to be to be the epitome of "advantage not intended by the rules."

Pinning it either has to be holding it or setting it on the floor. Either way, by rule, it's illegal (in this context).

Disagree. The key is control. If we say he never held the ball, (this is certainly debatable) everything is all right. If he dove on the floor, touched the ball, and it rolled away, he would certainly be able to get up and do whatever.
I don't see this play as being any different.

"Larry Bird-Like" ...
 

YouTube - Rajon Rondo Hustle Dive For Ball vs Orlando Magic - 2010 Playoffs

I also saw the multiple replays on ESPN. Since I only use NFHS rules in all of my games, I immediately thought legal, or illegal, and how would I have called that in my high school game, in real time?

First replay: Illegal, based on the classic 4.44.5 SITUATION B interpretation.

Second replay: Wait minute? He's not holding the ball. The ball is pinned against the floor. Also Rondo did not "put the ball on the floor, rise, and (be the) first to touch the ball". The ball was already on the floor, and he was not the first to touch after standing, he was touching it the whole, entire time. Maybe this is a legal play? "When in doubt, don't be" has been drilled into my head by both Forum members, and by the powers that be in my local board. Since I'm not really 100% sure here, after further review of the replays, I'm voting NFHS legal.

Now, from a strictly rulebook interpretation, I welcome Forum members to please try to convince me otherwise.

There's only one possible way to definitively come up with the right answer. Have a poll.

Deliberately Provocative ...
 

Or maybe hit somebody with a pole.

But the ball didn't roll away. He had complete and total control to the point where I would have granted a timeout while it was pinned.

I agree, but with that being said it is not clearly listed this is control to where a travel is concerned. Then again that is why I said earlier that I m not convinced this is technically illegal. It sounds like a play that was never considered by the NF (or NCAA that I am aware of) for legality.

Peace

I can't disagree with this, but this is where, to me, the purpose and intent of the rules comes into play. The NFHS wants it called a travel when a player holds the ball and stands up. They want it called a travel even when a player stands completely lets go and lets the ball sit next to him while he stands. I can't imagine they want to allow a player to stand because he found a loophole somewhere between letting go and holding it, both of which they want called a travel.

I said nothing about the spirit of the rule, so perhaps your reading comprehension could use a little work.

"Intent and purpose" are, however, mentioned in the actual rule book.

Yes, but he was not "holding" the ball. The ball was on the floor. I do not consider that holding. But then again you can say he had some control possibly of the ball. I probably at first glance would have passed on this play. I do think the NF needs to clarify this if they want a travel called. I do not like to make travel calls simply because it looked funny.

Peace

Watching it in full speed the first time, I would have whistled it. Here's how I see the rule.

1. NFHS wants it called travel when the player is holding the ball and stands up.

2. NFHS wants it called travel when a player sets the ball down then gets up.

3. When a player does something that, for all intents and purposes, falls right in the middle of 1 and 2, I can't imagine they want that allowed.

I do think they need to clarify this, or define "holding" to include pinning the ball to the floor. It could also have ramifications for team control issues.

BLUE FONT!!!:p

IDGAF about blue font. I knew you were being sarcastic, though, and I responded accordingly.

Then you are deeming that he is HOLDING the ball because only by establishing player control can a time-out request be granted during a live ball (other than at the disposal situations), and player control is defined as holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

Anyone who would have granted a request for a time-out to a player pinning the ball to the floor in this manner is admitting that this action constitutes holding the ball.

The reason that I posted 4.15 Comment earlier in this thread was to demonstrate that the NFHS considers it possible for a player to be holding the ball while it is touching the floor.

Doesn't this go in the DUH file? Of course it is possible for a player to hold the ball while touching the floor.......or another player.........or the backboard if it's a really tall player.

Some of us just think that in this play, Rondo was not holding the ball until after he stood up. One would think that based on past history, he could have done practically anything here without a whistle.

But, if an NFHS player has the presence of mind to not grab the ball while on the floor in this situation, or just gets lucky and doesn't, it is a legal play.

Kobe stumbled the other night and took two or three steps and fell down while clutching the ball like an NFL running back.

He wasn't called for travelling and was granted a timeout!

Falling to the floor with the ball is not illegal in the NBA.

"A player who falls to the floor while holding the ball, or while coming to a stop, may not gain an advantage by sliding."

I won't comment on the number of steps taken during the fall.

And those are essentially the same thing.

I have to agree with you completely. I just saw the YouTube video of this play and it looks like Rondo does not gain control until he is on his feet. I was mostly commenting off of memory, but now that I was really able to see the replay (the top video looks the best in my opinion) I not only think that this was legal, this would be legal at all levels. He did not control the ball then come off the floor from my judgment.

Peace

And that's how the play is called.....

Always a judgment call.

That was my point, yes.

Well that's a great way to kill the discussion. Where's the fun in that? :(

An oldie, but goodie....and it was started by me. :D

Uh, I haven't been posting/reading a lot, but can someone tell me who this (Judtech) guy is to even dictate something that wasn't normally done on the forum. Or, are people just doing it (sometimes) to be sarcastic like the....wait for it...:D

If so, Judtech, you have been owned!

I believe that people are doing it as a running joke.

As far as Judtech, he is a big-time college official. He can dictate the parameters of anything. Didn't you know that? ;)

A player is flat on his stomach with his hand extended out in front of him pinning the ball to the floor. Is he in control of the ball???
I do recall reading some time ago that pinning the ball is not control. Thus the Rondo play is legal. Also you would not be able to call a Time-out if a player requested one.

do you have a reference to documentation of this?

Sorry, BNR, I should have credited you. :)

And so the education of the masses continues.......
 

Got a call tonight from my nephew......"Hey, Uncle Rob, did you see the play in the Celtic's vs the Magic Game where Rondo dove for the ball and got up? That's a walk right? They missed it didn't they?"

"Ya see, the Pros, College and HS have different rules......." and so it goes......

Are you talking about the level I call or my waist size?!?!?!:eek:

As for being owned, not sure what is meant by that, I think no man owns another. However, I can neither confirm nor deny that 'renting' by the hour has been an option.