intentional vs flagrant
 

Sadly I have to admit that I'm having a hard time distinguishing the differences between intentional fouls and flagrant fouls and the rules that apply to them (two shots and the ball, or POI). I don't have my rule book and also did a search on this forum but got more confused. I will give two scenarios and ask my questions with each (NFHS).

Example 1: Player A has a clear drive to the hoop and as he goes in for the layup, player B grabs him from behind and pulls him to the ground with no real attempt at the ball.

Since the ball is live, this has to be intentional right?. Two shots and the ball for A. However, is B disqualified?

Example 2: Player A is boxing out player B under the goal and while doing so raises his elbows, swings and hits player B in the face.

Is this the same as throwing a punch? What are other easy examples of a flagrant foul?


Thanks for the help.

PS. I understand how important it is to use correct terms when explaining rules and I'm really trying to work hard at using all the correct terminology for these fouls. I'm still learning, so forgive me if I've used incorrect "verbiage"

[QUOTE=Ptflea2;677689]

Example 1: Player A has a clear drive to the hoop and as he goes in for the layup, player B grabs him from behind and pulls him to the ground with no real attempt at the ball.

Since the ball is live, this has to be intentional right?. RIGHT Two shots and the ball for A. However, is B disqualified? NO I would not DQ him for this..


Example 2: Player A is boxing out player B under the goal and while doing so raises his elbows, swings and hits player B in the face. Had to be there to see this one. From with you describe I would go with a common foul.

Is this the same as throwing a punch? What are other easy examples of a flagrant foul?

So you are not disqualified after an intentional foul?

Correct, flagrant technical/personal result in DQs.

If you are having a hard time knowing the deference, then you need to simply read the definitions of the two types of fouls. This is not the NBA, so the term "flagrant" does not have the same meaning. And intentional foul can be during a live or a dead ball. The rules at the NF or NCAA level do not use the term "clear path" or anything that helps determine a type of foul.

BTW, I have only once in my career seen a flagrant foul (based on basketball type contact). This is not something that happens very often. Hard fouls can be intentional and not flagrant. This just sounds like you do not know the basic definitions and really need to get into the definitions rather than calling this by the seat of your pants.

Peace

NO!!!!

Peace

No, but if you commit 5 of them, you will be.
Or, if two of them are intentional technical fouls, you would be disqualified.
There are two types of player fouls with various subjections.
1. Personal
a) common
b) shooting
c) intentional
d) flagrant

2. Technical
a) unsporting
b) intentional

A few years ago in a freshman boys game, we had a player who was a bit out of control. He shoved a player from behind rather than give him a wide open layup. I called the intentional.

Later in the game, he did it again, to a smaller player. The second time, you could see he was really out of control and dangerous. My partner called a flagrant on that one.

With live ball contact, it really depends on intent.

In your scenarios, you could consider an intentional with the elbow based on excessive contact. Calling the intentional foul there is likely to stop that behavior. If it doesn't, and the player continues to disregard the rules so flagrantly, a flagrant foul may be in order.

I think you've hit on our new poster's problem.

In NFHS, flagrant=disqualification.

As for your examples, severity of the contact and intent could help determine whether this is flagrant or intentional. Example 1 sounds intentional, at the very least. Example 2 sounds common.

I agree with you, I'm not as sharp as I need to be with the definitions of these two fouls. During my free time at work, I try and spend some time on my rules knowledge and application. Kinda hard to do when you don't have your rule book right?(which I stated in the first post) It's been bothering me all morning that I can't come up with the differences between the two so I came on here to try and remedy that.

thank you!!!!!

Has this helped?

Very much. You spread it out easily:

1. Personal
a) common
b) shooting
c) intentional
d) flagrant

2. Technical
a) unsporting
b) intentional


However, what is the difference between 1. C and 2. B ?

I've always used the following guidelines for determining if a foul was flagrant. If the fouling player displayed an intent to injure or showed an utter disregard for the safety of the player he fouled, then it's flagrant.

I know these determinations are still subjective, but I think that the more experience you have, the more qualified you will be to make a decision on whether or not the foul met those guidelines based on all the play you've seen over the years and the context of that particular foul.

As the saying goes, there's no substitute for experience. At least, that's what the sexy lady down on the corner tells me. ;)

1C is a live ball contact foul (such as your example.)
2B is a dead ball contact foul. Dead ball contact is to be ignored unless it is either intentional or flagrant. (I added 2C above)

I'm guessing experience has made her less sexy.

Thanks Snaqwells. Lets hope I don't have to call either in my men's league tonight. :p

I would have thought Padgett would have given this response to his own quote. Well played :).

It depends how you interpit the "spirit of the Rule" :)

Embrace the opportunity to handle these situations in the off-season should they arise. When they come up in sanctioned games, your experience will make you look as good as gold!

Situation A: Team A is shooting the first of 2 FT's. B1 loudly passes gas. Would this be a 'fragrant foul'? What if A1 passed the gas, yet you couldn't hear it?
Sorry long day, and when I first looked at the post I actually thought it said "intentional vs FRAGRANT":o

If you were in Canada, you would embrace the "Spirit of the Radio". This is best exemplified by the three man crew of Lee, Peart and Lifeson!

I can understand how you might have been confused. The other day, a friend of mine said he was using "innuendo", and I thought he meant an Italian suppository.

I understand you were being humorous, but, let's use this as an opp to point out what could be considered "coercion". If the noise didn't distract the shooter, I'm sure the change in odor gradient would.

Very good point. What would the reporting mechanic look like?:confused: Would you make a waving motion behind you or plug your nose? Are these mechanics different in NFHS, NCAA - M, NCAA - W and IAABO? Would the PA play the clip from Holy Grail "I fart in your general direction"?

Generally true, but not precisely correct. You are overlooking one aspect.

airborne shooter :)

Yep. So if a player intentionally fouls an airborne shooter after the ball has passed through the basket, what type of foul is correct using your classification list in this thread? ;)

That would be a "stupid" foul.

You can download rulebooks in PDF format from the NFHS website if you have an NFHS ID number. At least in my state, all registered officials are also given NFHS ID numbers.

I also uploaded it to my iPod Touch, so I have it with me wherever. It's come in handy a few times.

I got your airborne shooter right here
Basketball Shot From a Plane - CBS News Video

According to the spot this morning on the Early Show, this was done on only the second attempt.

Now, my question - if the defender clips the landing gear, and it doesn't affect the shot, is it still a foul?